Official Catcher in the Rye Discussion Thread

[John Green]

In which we shall discuss such topics as:

1. Holden's feeling of alienation and outsiderness.
2. The book's attitudes toward women (or is it Holden's attitude toward women?)
3. The manner in which Holden's loneliness is expressed.
4. The difficulty of moving from the world of innocence to the world of experience.
5. Anything else.

Thanks for being awesome, nerdfighters.

[Eric's Every New Day]

I think it was interesting when the pimp comes back to get the extra $5 and Holden cries. I think it has a lot to do with some points above. In his loneliness he calls for this prostitute in order to just have someone there and is cast aside really and then robbed later on making him cry and feel even more alone. Also it goes with his innocence to experience. He calls for her but does nothing and maintaining his innocence in a sense but quickly dives into the world of experience as he is robbed.

[puffer813]

Meanwhile he is also cursing like a sailor and talking about the young prostitute like he is so much older. So again, he is caught in between the two worlds of crying like a little kid or being an adult.

[KATY!]

HAHAHA first second post /immature gloating moment... and back to business

Righto, well, I noticed that bit about Holden changing from "I" to "you" a lot throughout the first chapters. Like in chapter 5 when he says "People never believe you" after talking about the snowball and how he told the bus driver he "wasn't going to chuck it at anybody."

Also, I noticed in quite a few spots how he says "I and my friend" or "I and Allie" instead of, you know, the other way around. So I'm wondering if that's an intentional JD Sallinger thing or if the rules of grammar and ediquite were different way back in 1945. (I am, of course, saying that the proper way of saying those things would be to put the other person before yourself. "My friend and I" or "Allie and I".)

On a more general/off-topic note, has anyone realized how frequently people say "So-and-So and I" when they SHOULD be saying "So-and-So and me"? I do. It bugs the crap out of me.

[unityofeffect]

I noticed the grammar thing too! What was that about?

[KATY!]

See, I'm pretty sure that's still grammatically correct, it's just not "polite," and I don't see why Holden should have to conform to such petty laws of etiquette.

[Emily S S]

It could be J.D. using colloquial language.

[DClaudeKatz]

I think KATY! is right. I don't know of any grammatical reason why the other person's name should come first. It's just not the way people usually speak, but it is more an issue of etiquette than grammar: you're supposed to give others precedence; otherwise it seems like a selfish way of talking. Maybe one should interpret Holden's usage to indicate self-centeredness.

[unityofeffect]

That's an interesting point. It did make me stop and think. I couldn't figure out if it was an error, a different style that I was unfamiliar with, or a deliberate literary point.

[tallierand]

I believe it is a grammatical rule to put the other person first. However, Salinger is definitely using colloquial language in this book. It is evident in other places, as well (I'd give examples, but I don't have the book with me).

[Emily]

Holden breaks plenty of grammatical rules. I don't have the book with me either, but there are plenty of run on sentences, sentence fragments and just blatant examples of Holden's disregard for grammar. I think Salinger uses Holden's lack of eloquence (for lack of a better word) to remind the reader that Holden is the story teller here. When one reads this book, one must remember that the point of view is that of a crazed and confused young man. I think the poor grammar is a hint that you have to take what Holden is saying with a grain of salt.

[Felix]

I think it really is just the way the story is told: Colloquially, like in a conversation.
Holden uses bits from conversation all through the book, i.e. when he says things like "you know", "to be honest", and "if you wanna know the truth".
So the errors are errors that one might correct when writing something, but when talking, they hapen.

[Lori]

I completely agree with this. It's the same with Mark Twain's book, The Adventure's of Huckleberry Finn. In both books the author's write colloquially to show that it is truly coming from the main characters thoughts and ideas. The poor grammar could be, as Rachel said, that the book was breaking the rules of society (being as controversial as it was) and along with those rules of society are the rules of the language that upholds it.

Same can be seen in Huck Finn. It was a veeeeery controversial book.