Nerdfighters

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/9113394/Killing-babies...

The article, published in the Journal of Medical Ethics, says newborn babies are not “actual persons” and do not have a “moral right to life”....They argued: “The moral status of an infant is equivalent to that of a fetus in the sense that both lack those properties that justify the attribution of a right to life to an individual.”

Rather than being “actual persons”, newborns were “potential persons”. They explained: “Both a fetus and a newborn certainly are human beings and potential persons, but neither is a ‘person’ in the sense of ‘subject of a moral right to life’.

This is the fundamental problem with the objection to abortion that foetus's are not "people" but are merely "potential". The argument can be used far too broadly and can justify the killing of a newborn child. So my question to those who use the "potential" argument, is how do you distinguish between a newborn and a foetus, keeping in mind that Oxford professors can't seem to manage it.

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The fetus is neither a person nor is it a potential person. The fetus is a mass of cells


We are all masses of cells.

What constitutes a person is a human who has been born. In legal contracts, treaties, laws, and constitutions the world over a person is one who has been born. No birth no person


1. A birth is a very arbitrary point. 2. In the past we said "not white, not a person". You need to give more reasoning than "It was done in the past".

A human must have a the capacity to think, fetus do not have that capacity. They are still just masses of cells attempting to become a living thing. They are a mass of cells which are living things but those living things have not yet formed one complete multicellular organism.


The point this whole thread is based on is that it can be demonstrated, using widely understood precepts and good reasoning, that new born babies are not thinking etc either. Therefore, your argument could also be used on them. You have yet to provide a reason why we should value thinking as opposed to something that is in the process of developing the capacity to think.

1. A birth is a very arbitrary point.

Not really. It is the marked transition from being wholly dependent on your mother's vascular system for nutrition to being an independent organism.

2. In the past we said "not white, not a person". You need to give more reasoning than "It was done in the past".

But he never said something like that. He argumented for the current situation in which a human constitutes an individual of our species who has been born and the legal entities which take that not so arbitrary point as a reference.

Not really. It is the marked transition from being wholly dependent on your mother's vascular system for nutrition to being an independent organism.


All you've done there is describe a birth. That does not answer the question of why you arbitrarily choose it as a point to declare a "born" being a person.

But he never said something like that. He argumented for the current situation in which a human constitutes an individual of our species who has been born and the legal entities which take that not so arbitrary point as a reference.


At one point, the past was current. The fact that it is a currently accepted norm does not confer upon it any accuracy, any more than the past's accepted norm of racisim confers upon it any accuracy.

All you've done there is describe a birth. That does not answer the question of why you arbitrarily choose it as a point to declare a "born" being a person.

You didn't ask why this point was chosen, you merely stated that you deem it arbitrary. I posted a counter argument to that statement. Another one I can think of is that birth is a moment which can be verified while conception can't, it can only be inferred from later data.

At one point, the past was current. The fact that it is a currently accepted norm does not confer upon it any accuracy, any more than the past's accepted norm of racisim confers upon it any accuracy.

I never said that this current norm is the absolute pinnacle of accuracy or perfection, and this is not the point of my reply. My reply was to point out that your reply lacked a relation to his post in the way you phrased it.

You didn't ask why this point was chosen, you merely stated that you deem it arbitrary.


Arbitrary means "Based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system". I would have thought it was clear that I was looking for a reason.

Another one I can think of is that birth is a moment which can be verified while conception can't, it can only be inferred from later data.


Why does that alter whether or not the person is human at that point or not. Obviously, we cannot be held responsible for that which we do not know.

I never said that this current norm is the absolute pinnacle of accuracy or perfection, and this is not the point of my reply. My reply was to point out that your reply lacked a relation to his post in the way you phrased it.


He said "What constitutes a person is a human who has been born. In legal contracts, treaties, laws, and constitutions the world over a person is one who has been born. No birth no person." and he did not provide any context suggesting that this was a good thing above and beyond the fact that it has always been this way.

Here is the thing about abortion even if we were to consider these embryos people from the time of conception If the mother is ver old or very young or very sick and having that child risks her life and or the life of her child than the pregnancy should be terminated. There was a girl at my school who got pregnant at the age of twelve. yes it was her fault and maybe she should have to pay for the mistake she made but since we live in a very anti abortion area she had the kid and now he has to pay for the mistake too, he did nothing to deserve that. 

Why did you necromance a Verty thread? 

Probably because it's still a controversy many places, despite my nihilistic efforts of proving otherwise...

Actually I understand the other side much better after this discussion, because where I live this is not an issue at all, so I've never really thought about why I'm okey with it. I mean if I was able to perceive fetuses as people, persons in their own right, I would of course not be pro abortion/choice. I get that if you believe in the soul, then this whole issue becomes more sensitive...

A zyogte does not need thinking skill, it has the DNA to tell it how to do these things. It is the DNA that is in the process of attempting to complete its task, IE Grow the baby. Whether or not it has the capacity now isn't as relevent as whether it is attempting to develop the capacity, and is growing the full capacity.

It needs thinking skill and awareness, among other things, in order to be considered a person. I don't get why you put so much emphasis on DNA alone. It may come a time when we have to consider other lifeforms, even synthetic, who does not share our DNA as persons too.

It needs thinking skill and awareness, among other things, in order to be considered a person. I don't get why you put so much emphasis on DNA alone.


Because that is the only definite point we have. YOU say that it needs thinking skill etc, however that is your opinion alone. All we can say objectively is that we give human rights to things that are human organisms and alive.

 

It may come a time when we have to consider other lifeforms, even synthetic, who does not share our DNA as persons too.

 

That's a different question. You are then discussing whether an individual species is deserving of similar rigths or not. Judging a species is different to judging a developmental level.

Pro-tip, don't fight over who finished first when you haven't decided what type of race you're having. 

Define terms and premises, come to an agreement, progress from there.  

Otherwise, you may as well be gargling at each other. 

Fine.

Premise: The law should not act on the basis of subjective reasoning.

Premise: The only objective definition of a human is that it is

A) An organism (as opposed to a tissue etc)

B) Has homo sapien DNA

C) Is alive (as defined by the MRS GREN system)


Premise: We only give human rights to those objectively considered human.

Conclusion: Since embryos fit the definitions above, they must be objectively considered human, and thus have rights, and thus cannot be legitimately destroyed by the mother.

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