Alien life

[Latch33570]

If we encountered ET. What could we say to them to make them treat us as equals. Or even hey don't eat me?

[Nelson]

I'll just leave this infographic here:

'let's say (for whatever reason) you're the first human ever to make alien contact'(linked because it is rather large).

[Latch33570]

Since they found organic molecules in meteoroids and comets I bet there is life and it is similar to ours. But how would we reason with them? Assuming that we can talk to them. They learned english what would we say to them ? Don't eat us please? We probably taste terrible. What would be our questions?

[Eystein,]

I also think most life if out there is likely to be similar to something we know from Earth, and also likely to be carbon-based. I think also, if they are intelligent and tech-wielding, they will have striking similarities with us. This might sound boring and pretty unimaginable of me, but thinking about it I find it only logical. I don't rule out exceptions, I just assume that life will always be material and that the same laws of natural selection applies everywhere.

I'm very intrigued about the prospect of finding life on some of Jupiter's moons and indeed even traces of it on Mars, heck maybe even still alive. However I'm not convinced we will have any luck finding any on those moons though, even though they are likely to be able to sustain earth-like life. I think there is reasons to believe that electromagnetic radiation is key in the process of abiogenesis and it will be very little of that in the depth of Europa's oceans. I think that even though Europa may have mineral rich hydrothermal vents on its ocean floors, which can sustain and nurture unique ecosystems, I don't think geothermal heat alone can produce enough varieties of organic matter in the right quantities to induce life from scratch.

Of course there is Titan which hypothetically can harbor a very different form of life, so-called methanogens. I read that scientists have succeeded in creating several nucleotide bases and amino acids by beaming radiation at a combination of gases like those present on Titan. I don't know if the radiation they used is equivalent to that which Titan naturally recieves from the Sun (and/or Saturn? o.O), but no doubt something interesting is definitely going on there.

But regardless of the chemical composition, it doesn't eliminate the requirement of a appropriate body to escape the bonds of its natural environment. No matter how intelligent dolphins are or how intelligent they'll evolve to become, no matter how curious they appear to be of us, it doesn't change that they will never be able to build anything. They will never be able to record whatever they have discovered. Intelligent space faring aliens however will have, or have had, that ability at some point in their history. They will certainly not be like Jaba the Hut or the Hanar (Mass Effect), ie made of jelly... They may have evolved beyond the need of a biological body, but they will most certainly surround themselves with functional things such electronics, nanobots and otherwise mechanical stuff of incredible sophistication. I mean you can't venture into space without the ability to record and communicate knowledge and build stuff.

[CD]

Another cool response guys.   Okay...hmm

I don't rule out exceptions, I just assume that life will always be material and that the same laws of natural selection applies everywhere.

That's more than likely true. But. Some of the processes that enable life, natural selection and so on are sort of not material.  It's products of matter, and equivalent too...but strictly not exactly matter. Atoms are less than 5% of the universe :O

I read that scientists have succeeded in creating several nucleotide bases and amino acids by beaming radiation at a combination of gases like those present on Titan.

How many cans of awesome were opened that day......:O

Another point.  The gaseous composition of Titan isn't equivalent to earth.  So what they've done there maybe is so that that the building blocks of DNA can be artificially manufactured using radiation+ gases. Or at least viruses can be produced this way.  Where are the compound chains for basic cell structures, maybe a bacterium?  Then merge the two. Walla abiogenesis.  Would that work with Titan like mixtures? Maybe, maybe not.

I mean you can't venture into space without the ability to record and communicate knowledge and build stuff.

Not if you're human you can't.   I wonder what what's his name's species from Deep Space Nine would reckon.  The morphing liquid people.  Fudge computers we got the link. But maybe that's what happens after the nano-tech.  Maybe in 2000 years or so, if we're around that long (probably  not at the rate we're going) if the transhumanists get their way we'll have been reconfigured into the ultimate replicator type things and eventually be liquid people ourselves.

[Eystein,]

Some of the processes that enable life, natural selection and so on are sort of not material.

I don't think you're correct there. I don't mean to step on your philosophies here, I'm not an expert mind you;) But natural selection as a phenomenon is very much determined by the properties of matter. It's not a thing, it's just a consequence which has to happen when organisms evolve over time.

Atoms are less than 5% of the universe :O

Yes that is pretty intriguing, but the rest consists of emptiness and energy, possibly even dark energy whatever that is. I don't think anyone knows what dark energy is, it's just a hunch that it has to exist, just this one more thing, to account for the accelerating expansion of space.

I think life has to consist of matter though, and not out of pure energy as in radiation for example (even though matter is energy too). Radiation doesn't cling together to produce form and function; it travels really really fast and simply disperses into the vastness of space. Life can't exist of gravity either... that would be just as absurd.

Energy and gravity is necessary to invoke processes we can describe as living though, but they can't themselves be alive. For example free energy as in radiation is a one way vector, it doesn't stop to reconsider. It's just an unchanging, isolated thingy that just goes forward for some reason... Okey so I realize that I have slightly contradicted myself because matter alone can't be alive either, but still it's between atoms that the action happens if you get my drift.

The gaseous composition of Titan isn't equivalent to earth.  So what they've done there maybe is so that that the building blocks of DNA can be artificially manufactured using radiation+ gases.

Well, these particular lab experiments were made to explicitly mimic the atmospheric conditions on Titan. Apparently they have detected very complicated molecules swirling around in the atmosphere there, something like thousands of hydrocarbons chained together.

Otherwise they do likewise experiments for trying to find possible explinations for the mysteries of abiogenesis here on Earth also, usually involving soup. Interestingly the primordial conditions on Earth are sometimes believed to have been very similar to conditions on Titan today, exept Earth would have been warmer. When they beam a carefully assembled primordial soup with radiation they similarly produce chains nucleotides in the form of RNA and amino acids as well as organic membranes and other interesting stuff. They haven't cracked the puzzle yet, and obviously it involves a lot of controversy. It won't convince creationists, but I personally believe that once these things gets trapped inside a membrane, and you consider the properties of osmosis, then it's fairly clear to me that something really exceptional can indeed simply just happen in a micro-environment like that.

I mean you can't venture into space without the ability to record and communicate knowledge and build stuff.

Well, what I meant is that we have to conclude that they must have had an evolutionary beginning. They can't just have spontaneously appeared in the nothingness of space, blessed with unfathomable intelligence and immortality. They must have evolved on a celestial body with a material environment. They will so long as they remain biological be dependent on that environment, and take it with them wherever they go. I think it's implausible that an organism could have evolved to be sturdy enough to survive in space without any protection, and that it simply just happened to find itself there one day for no apparent reason. Of course it could be that some aliens are extradimentional beings, transcending time and space and whatnot, but personally I don't believe the universe allows for such things, although it's a mindbendingly interesting possibility.

I wonder what what's his name's species from Deep Space Nine would reckon.  The morphing liquid people. 

Hehe, I'm not a great fan of old school Star Trek, had to google that one ;)

But maybe that's what happens after the nano-tech.

I think that is a sound assessment. For example a swarm of nanobots capable of configuring into a vessel of higher intelligence. I think even if our first contact with something alien were something as bizarre as a toaster turned into a man, you would still be able to recognize it as something extraordinary. Maybe you would question your sanity, think it a demon or something, or maybe even a manifestation of God. But clearly you wouldn't rub it off as just another, yet to be explained, natural phenomena.

I think that if aliens do visit us they will have extraordinary abilities to manipulate the physical world, capable of completely escape our feeble instruments until they so wish to make themselves present. I think that if they do wish contact, they will do so on our level, just like we do when we seek contact with chimps and dolphins. But, however advanced as they might be, they must have started somewhere and crawled their way out of the cradle. That restricts in many ways what they will look like, or how they used to look like, and consequently that will also have had influence on their nature and behavior.

[CD]

But natural selection as a phenomenon is very much determined by the properties of matter. It's not a thing, it's just a consequence which has to happen when organisms evolve over time.

You're right about that.  I was speaking more in generalities.  EM is not actually matter in a similar way that photons are not matter, but particles.  Radiation is a process of stuff (and not always matter but sometimes energy or particles that make up matter) going in a directional pattern.  So radiation is immaterial as well.  It's not supernatural, it's meta-natural.  That's what I'm getting at.  And basically if radiation can create nucleotides than meta-natural, immaterial things can cause the building blocks of natural, material life, yes?

Well, what I meant is that we have to conclude that they must have had an evolutionary beginning. They can't just have spontaneously appeared in the nothingness of space, blessed with unfathomable intelligence and immortality. They must have evolved on a celestial body with a material environment. They will so long as they remain biological be dependent on that environment, and take it with them wherever they go.

Yes.  I agree.  Unless they are no longer the same life form that left their home planet.  Space and the ravages of time may provide selective pressure on the evolution of an organism, too.

Hehe, I'm not a great fan of old school Star Trek, had to google that one ;)

Wow, D69 is old skool?  I wonder that that says about original series.  I suppose the cast are all geriatrics now.  Another movie is coming out in 2013  BTW

For example a swarm of nanobots capable of configuring into a vessel of higher intelligence

When we can upload our brains into computers,  we'll probably send out robotic versions of ourselves into space, that shoot back signals of what we experienced there, so our flesh selves can be in space without ever leaving earth.  Nanobots would be the ultimate way to do that.  And why not a vessel like that too, I like your style man, that's cool.  It just changes its shape to suit where it's going and stuff like that. How epic.

think even if our first contact with something alien were something as bizarre as a toaster turned into a man, you would still be able to recognize it as something extraordinary. Maybe you would question your sanity, think it a demon or something, or maybe even a manifestation of God. But clearly you wouldn't rub it off as just another, yet to be explained, natural phenomena.

Yes, I would.  And aliens would be another yet to explained natural phenomena.  But yeah, the thought process you say is common.  Seems to be "what cultural reference do I have to make sense of this weirdness?".

I think that if aliens do visit us they will have extraordinary abilities to manipulate the physical world, capable of completely escape our feeble instruments until they so wish to make themselves present.

Were I born in 1600 and someone said to me Miss CD, 400 years from now your gender will be consider a legal person and will have been into space before the richest nation on earth put man on the moon, and yes you will be on a computer talking to people from all over the world about it, and yes your education in the sciences in the 5th grade will be greater than our current knowledge, and yes you can even look inside a persons body without cutting it up, and even being on the same side of the planet, and there are these people on that continent who we europeans only imagine to exist now, and those people descend from the world's first explorers and have been there for 50k years, and yes you will be able to learn many languages and tell stories to everyone and take photos of the transit of venus on your bedroom wall.  You know what I would say.  I would say your fucking dreaming.  But here we are.

I hear you buddy.  But you know what,  those dreamers got people to Australia and they got everyone all over the planet, and they got the man on the moon, and they're going make instruments that let us see the aliens if they're here.  That's how it goes.  Time will tell.

I think that if they do wish contact, they will do so on our level, just like we do when we seek contact with chimps and dolphins

Chimps and dolphins and whales are also intelligent enough to seek contact with us, and avoid it as well.  You know they taught a chimp sign language and the chimp taught it to her daughter?  They taught a gibbon (I think it was a gibbon) to use a touch screen computer and it could recognise the difference between made up words and fake words above chance levels.  Whale song is so complex they're still decoding it.  Dolphins are extremely intelligent. Even the humble squid is a very fast learner.   It's not about intelligence so much as it is about communication style.  So their level is just a parallel almost.  If the principle is the same out there in the universe, then our alien buddies could be talking to us and we don't know because it's lateral.

But, however advanced as they might be, they must have started somewhere and crawled their way out of the cradle. That restricts in many ways what they will look like, or how they used to look like, and consequently that will also have had influence on their nature and behavior.

It's the somewhere that makes the difference.  Environment is a big deal.

Well, these particular lab experiments were made to explicitly mimic the atmospheric conditions on Titan. Apparently they have detected very complicated molecules swirling around in the atmosphere there, something like thousands of hydrocarbons chained together.

Awesome on the entire discussion re:  Titan and early Earth.  I did not know the similarities were there when it counted.  That makes a big difference.  *gleefully does the Mr Burns excellent hand motion*  Excellent.

[Jack Copping]

I reckon they would view us to how we view chimps, we see there smart and conscious of themselves and there surroundings but some of us still decide it's OK to kill them, it would be very much the fool's mistake to hope they treat us equally it might just be human nature but the people from more advanced lands first arriving at the less developed parts of the world have not tended to be nice.

[Latch33570]

You are ritght Jack. I don't think that they will think of us as chimps but it does beg the question. What can we say to them to get them to treat us with respect?

[Christian Carey]

I really don't think that there would be any one way to do it. It would all hinge on who discovered whom first, and under what pretense they visited. 

I was actually watching a really cool documentary ("Alien Planet") that was basically discussing astrobiology and what potential extraterrestrial life would be like. At the end though it showed an intelligent life form in its early stages (compared to the level of early man) that could not comprehend the probes sent from earth or their message and were the cause of their eventual destruction. 

Realistically, if the extraterrestrials are the first one to reach us, I think as long as the language barrier could be overcome, considering the ET's were able to have the cognitive reasoning to reach out across to cosmos and come to us, peace and being treated as equals would be no problem. However, that language barrier bit would be the toughest part, because they could communicate in a way that is far beyond any human understanding.

However, if we were the ones that made first contact, I feel like this would be the more challenging task, especially since these ET's could potentially see us as threats since they may not understand our language as well, and this would end badly also.

Basically, I see the single biggest challenge to either of these is communication barriers. For all we know, they could "talk" using chemicals in much the way plants do on earth and we would never decipher that, or maybe using radiation from organism to organism. 

I really do think though, that if this barrier is crossed, intelligent discourse would be possible if not probable.

 

[Latch33570]

Eistein Did I notice you saying that you weren't a Star Trek fan?  How unnerdy of you. Isn't that sort of sacreligeous here?

Just kidding.

Jack I hope that they are here. That would mean that they aren't very dangerous and controlling or like to eat us. Well I guess it could mean that they have to come in small groups and therefore not as dangerous. That would be cool huh? I would like to meet them. As long as they don't want to eat me?

[Eystein,]

Indeed I said that =P To be honest I haven't given it much effort though cause I've only seen a few episodes of the old shows which get recycled television all the time. But I liked the newest movie and wouldn't mind more of that.

Jack I hope that they are here. That would mean that they aren't very dangerous and controlling or like to eat us. Well I guess it could mean that they have to come in small groups and therefore not as dangerous. That would be cool huh? I would like to meet them. As long as they don't want to eat me?

Yeah me too. Have no problems imagining unauthorized space tourism on their part. Lots to see here. Obviously they don't want any official relationship with us, and that is sort understandable. What could we possibly have to contribute? They most likely won't be able to eat us because our metabolisms shouldn't align up too well. That doesn't mean they wouldn't want to dispose of us in some other fashion. Let's just hope they'd save some room for us in one of their intergalactic zoos. I'd like to see that before I die.

[Eystein,]

Alright, I'm reviving this because it's such a cool discussion to mess around with. Besides I'm been doing some thinking B)