Anit-Abortionists/Pro-Life/Nutjobs

[Josh Braun]

I understand that people have the right to freedom of speech and freedom to assemble and protest, and I'm all for that, but some of the stuff that these "Pro-life" people have done has been absolutely fucking insane.

 

I know there have been incidents of violence, terrorism, and threats from people who are all for saving the human life. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-abortion_violence

 

I also have personall experience with this. I was recently walking my seven year old brother and his friend to Party City to get Halloween costumes and I let them go ahead. I turned the corner and I saw this lady speaking to fucking seven year olds about being pro-life and how abortion is murder. These kids hardly even know what abortion is, so I went up and took them and walked away. I didn't want a confrontation, but the fucking cook kept following me and pressing her ideas down seven year olds throats. That's just fucked up, she needs to mind he own business. I know some people will say she should be trying to convince seven year olds, but I don't think protestor towards little kids is right or ethical.

 

I guess what I'm getting at is, for people who are so "Pro-life" and good, they have harrassed people, and done much worse.

 

I'm not saying they don't have the right to protest, just what some of them do is completely fucked up, and having them harass seven year old boys just isnt' right.

 

EDIT: What does religion have to do with abortion? It's not stated in the bible and I really just can't understand why the protestors carry crosses.

[Johanna]

Really, and what have pro-choice people done that is as horrible as condeming ACTUAL people to death? I bolded that since you seem a bit confused about what a person really is.

[Vertigo_One [Ops Mod]]

Really, and what have pro-choice people done that is as horrible as condeming ACTUAL people to death?

 

Frank Mandiola sent bomb threats to abortion clinics and pro-choice activist centres. BUT he was a pro-choicer himself, doing it for deceptive reasons

 

Janet Greenhut recieved death threats for opperating a pro-life prengancy councelling centre that supervised alternatives to abortions

 

Justin Jordan threatend a group of pro-lifers with a gun asking them if they were "ready to die" at a protest.

 

And an abortion clinic arson when fully investigated, was later found to be fraud for insurance money on the part of the doctor who ran it.

 

For more examples and links look here

 

http://www.gargaro.com/otherside.html

 

Besides, even if it were true, the fact that there have been no pro-choice extremists =/= somehow pro-choice being better. Also, it is a matter of perspective. From the pro-life POV, the pro-choicers are killing people.

[Josh Braun]

All extremists are bad. It's not really healthy, for anyone, to be to far left or to far right. What I meant by nut jobs, was the extremists and that lady for forcing her views upon a seven year old.

 

Historically speaking, there have been more extremist acts by pro-lifers than pro-choice people.

[Shane]

But this is just it - most pro-life people don't want to kill doctors, just a very small minority.  And to them, thousands of lives are ended every day, so women dying in illicit abortions would pale in comparison to that.

 

Just think of if there were a practice today of widespread infanticide, where mothers gave birth to their children, then decided that they didn't want them, so then killed them.  That would be a pretty big deal, and then a huge debate started between people who thought this was bad and people who didn't.  Tension would rise, people would get angry, etc.  

Note that I'm NOT saying abortion is infanticide - I don't want to make any kind of judgement here.  Consider me absolutely neutral on the issue.  I'm just trying to say, try to get inside the other side's head.  This is how we can have fruitful discussion on the topic.

[Kelly Donovan]

But you phrased it much better baha.

[Johanna]

Note that I'm NOT saying abortion is infanticide

Mate, that's exactly what you just did. You just said that abortion is just like killing an actual baby. So you actually admit that you don't care about all the women dying in back alley abortions or in childbirth? I mean, to you they're probably all sluts who deserve it anyway. So tell me genius, how should we solve the unwanted baby issue?

You pro-lifers are not really pro-life, you're pro a very specific kind of potential of life.

[Shane]

Whoa, hold on.  I used infanticide as an example to explain how pro-life supporters view abortion.  And infanticide was useful for the comparison because it is almost universally viewed as wrong.  But I did not say that abortion is infanticide, just that it is similar to how pro-life people view abortion.  

I'm not sure I'd say that pro-life people don't care about women dying in back alleys, but it's less of a concern to them than abortions.  I think it's mostly based upon numbers, but yes, there is probably also some sense that the women got themselves into it, so they should pay the consequences.  And please note that I don't think that.  It is not only flat-out erroneous, but it is also incredibly sexist.

I actually very much agree with your last statement.  It seems like the greatest irony that most pro-lifers in the US are also in favor of the death penalty and foreign wars and against universal healthcare and foreign aid.  

[Johanna]

The problem is that pro-lifers keep insisting that a fetus is a child, when the entire medical world would strongly disagree. There are no facts, just the opinion. And be honest, is an opinion really worth much if you can't back it up?

[Vertigo_One [Ops Mod]]

 The problem is that pro-lifers keep insisting that a fetus is a child, when the entire medical world would strongly disagree.

 

Erm...no

 

The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology

"Zygote: this cell results from the union of an oocyte and a sperm. A zygote is the beginning of a new human being (i.e., an embryo). Human development begins at fertilization… This highly specialized, totipotent cell marks the beginning of each of us as a unique individual." Moore, K. and T.V.N. Persaud. 1998. The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology (6th ed.), W.B. Saunders Company,  Philadelphia, pp 2-18.

Essentials of Human Embryology

“In this text, we begin our description of the developing human with the formation and differentiation of the male and female sex cells or gametes, which will unite at fertilization to initiate the embryonic development of a new individual." Larsen, W.J. 1998. Essentials of Human Embryology, Churchill Livingstone, New York, pp. 1-17.

Human Embryology & Teratology

"Fertilization is an important landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new, genetically distinct human organism is thereby formed…" O'Rahilly, R. and F. Muller. 1996. Human Embryology & Teratology, Wiley-Liss, New York, pp. 5-55. 

Dr. Alfred Bongioanni (University of Pennsylvania):
"I have learned from my earliest medical education that human life begins at the time of conception."

 Dr. Jerome LeJeune (University of Descartes):
"after fertilization has taken place a new human being has come into being."

Dr. Hymie Gordon (Mayo Clinic):
"By all criteria of modern molecular biology, life is present from the moment of conception."

Dr. Micheline Matthews-Roth (Harvard University Medical School):
"It is scientifically correct to say that an individual human life begins at conception"

 

So I'm sorry, you are wrong. Scientifically speaking, a human life begins at conception. There is no objective reason not to give it human rights at as an early a stage as is physically possible.

[Shane]

I think this highlights the fact that it's not a scientific issue.  Yes, the data are consistent, but how you interpret data is always subject to, well, interpretations.  That's why abortion is much more of an ethical issue.  In order to make a judgement on abortion, one has to first define human life - a purely ethical task.

[Übereil]

So I'm sorry, you are wrong. Scientifically speaking, a human life begins at conception. There is no objective reason not to give it human rights at as an early a stage as is physically possible.

If there's no objective reason not to give rights to fetuses there's no objective reason not to give rights to other life forms.

[Vertigo_One [Ops Mod]]

No.

 

Defining human life is a scientific task. The Fetus is alive (it possessess all the main functions of life, MRS GREN etc) and it is human (it has human DNA etc). Any other critera added is arbitary and ultimately non-objective.