Battle of the Sexes

[Charlotte Smith]

Pretty self-explanatory: who do you think has it worse off( girls vs. guys) and why.

[Loxi]

In America, I'd have to say guys. I know that women face a number of real challenges and old attitudes, and I don't think that's right. 

Men, however, face a number of subtle and acceptable forms of discrimination. They are victims of affirmative action, denied jobs  for sometimes less qualified women. In some states, a child born within a marriage is automatically assumed to be the husband's. Some don't allow any contest of paternity whatsoever, yet require the father to pay child support not based on the job he has, but the job his education qualifies him for. 

Males are almost always assumed to be the aggressors in cases of domestic violence, despite the fact that women can just as easily abuse men, and do in almost equal numbers, and men feel even more trapped, because many domestic violence helplines reject men outright, and because it can be seen as shameful for men to ask for help from being abused by a women, even more so if he's actually being harmed because "women shouldn't be able to harm men". Many can't fight back because society has ingrained in them that a man can't hit a woman, even in cases of self defense. I've seen countless claims that men can't be raped, and jokes about prison rape.

Most men I know would not help a child in need in a public place. They might stand from afar and keep an eye on the child, and call for help, etc., but most are too afraid of being accused of being a pedophile. Most of the men I know won't be in a room alone with a woman, or even with one or two other men, just in case. False rape claims destroy men's lives, while the woman often goes unpunished, often still considered a "victim" because obviously it was the ills of society forced her to lie, and it was in no way her fault.  

Men, and boys who are victims of statutory rape, and be required to pay child support to their rapists. A woman can impregnate herself via semen left in a condom, or from semen from oral sex, andrecieve child support. There are no birth control methods for men other than surgical and condoms.
 
It's commonly acceptable to make jokes about men's stupidity, incompetence, and inability compared to women. 

There are more shelters and assistance aid programs for women and children than for men.  In my state, Women, and children under 21, and severely disabled people with medical proof of disability get help. Men, even fathers who are the sole providers for their disabled wife and young children, get no health care, even if their wife and children do. Men who have no documentation of severe medical conditions (because they were unable to afford treatment) can not get insurance. 

Women face a lot of issues, and  know in many places, the issues facing women are worse than those facing men. But where I am, men have it worse.  

[Johanna]

Oh for fucks sake, do you also think that white people have it worse then minorities? I envy your ignorance.

[Vertigo_One [Ops Mod]]

Rather than one sentence involving a swear but no argument, perhaps you can counter his points.

[Johanna]

A series of anecdotal evidence about how gender roles make it so that we can't view men as victims does not change the fact that they'll always have the upper hand. Also, the ''fake rape'' claim? Really? You wan't to go there? I mean, it's obviously worse for the man to be accused of rape then it is to be actually raped and having people slut-shaming you for it. What does women have to worry about really? Hate crimes? Workplace discrimination? Rape culture? Abuse? Meh, why won't someone think of the men! It's not like you, as a man, should take any responsibility to prevent having a child if you don't want to.  ''A woman can impregnate herself via semen left in a condom, or from semen from oral sex, andrecieve child support. There are no birth control methods for men other than surgical and condoms.'' Have you ever had sex? Do you have any concept of biology? Are you seriously saying that this is an effective method?

[Vertigo_One [Ops Mod]]

A series of anecdotal evidence about how gender roles make it so that we can't view men as victims does not change the fact that they'll always have the upper hand.

 

I disagree. The fact that we don't ever view men as victims is a serious disadvantage when they are. And thus, a problem, and one that is often not considered.

 

Also, the ''fake rape'' claim? Really? You wan't to go there? I mean, it's obviously worse for the man to be accused of rape then it is to be actually raped and having people slut-shaming you for it.

 

Erm...no one was suggesting it was worse, rather they were suggesting that it is a problem that does not beset women, and frankly, its a problem that is more common than people "slut shaming" women for rape. Seriously, in my experiance, women who claim to be raped, rightly or wrongly, recieve nothing but sympathy and care. The problem is that that unquestioning sympathy equally leads to unquestioning villification of the man, and more importantly, unquestioning villification of men.

 

Hate crimes?

 

Please provide examples of a WI that was torched, or a woman who was beaten up because she was a woman etc.

 

Workplace discrimination?

 

Given the ammount of laws and drives in place to stop it, it is men who have more to fear now, what with positive discrimination etc.

 

Rape culture?

 

I have yet to see proof of it's existance. IE a culture that glamorises rape. I see a culture of objectification, one that is fostered by both men and women.

 

Abuse? Meh, why won't someone think of the men!

 

Men do get abused too.

 

The way you are talking is exactly the way a lot of men get fustrated at. Women bleeting about their problems in the world to the extent to which that it makes it sound like these are not problems that beset men too. No one is arguing that women do not have problems, merely that A) they arn't as bad as most would make out, and B) that men have problems too.

It's not like you, as a man, should take any responsibility to prevent having a child if you don't want to.  ''A woman can impregnate herself via semen left in a condom, or from semen from oral sex, andrecieve child support. There are no birth control methods for men other than surgical and condoms.'' Have you ever had sex? Do you have any concept of biology? Are you seriously saying that this is an effective method?

 

If they invent a male pill, I'll gladly take it. But it seems like right now, the female versions of contraception are effective enough. That's just biology. That isn't sexism.

[Ceci]

Agreed. The patriarchy and rampant discrimination against women has been studied extensively and can be proven. Just look at how many Fortune 500 companies are run by women. How many women are in Congress? Even in pop culture, there's a discrepancy. I read somewhere recently there for every 1 female character in a movie, there are something like 2.7 male ones. If there isn't widespread, cultural bias against women why are we so underrepresented in every facet of public life? Women graduate from college at the same rate at men, yet rarely achieve the same level of success. It's reasonable to assume this isn't because women are lack ambition but because in our society, men are favored. It's a proven fact that men make more than women at the exact same jobs. Why is that if not because of sexism? 

Loxi only provided anecdata. Men certainly have a difficult time of it- humans everywhere have a difficult time of it. And yes, problems against men deserve our attention because we should all be decreasing world suck. However, it's one thing to say "men face xyz and we should stop it because it's wrong" and "men are systematically discriminated against on the basis of gender by the mean girls." One of these statements is productive and the other only seeks to derail feminism. When men face issues because of their gender, it is an exception. For women, it's the rule.

 

[Vertigo_One [Ops Mod]]

Just look at how many Fortune 500 companies are run by women. How many women are in Congress? Even in pop culture, there's a discrepancy. I read somewhere recently there for every 1 female character in a movie, there are something like 2.7 male ones.

 

No one is disputing these things (although I'd like to see the data for the movie one. I'm pretty sure if you sample it with movies made in the last 20-30 years, it will be pretty much even). The argument is however that men have different problems, some of which can be at least as bad, if not worse in some cases.  

 

If there isn't widespread, cultural bias against women why are we so underrepresented in every facet of public life?

 

This is the problem a lot of people have with feminism. Feminsim makes the assumption that all underepresentation of women is caused by external factors. What if it's not? What if there are factors of choice made by women, or just factors intrinsic to women themselves that do this.

 

Also, given the improvement in oppotunities for women in the last few years, you can't really claim that the bias isn't going away.

 

It's a proven fact that men make more than women at the exact same jobs.

 

No it isn't. This is exactly what the law prevents. What you are thinking of is the stats where 100 women and 100 men's pay is sampled and overall, women have less. Is it not possible that some women have just made differnet choices.

 

When men face issues because of their gender, it is an exception. For women, it's the rule.

 

I disagree. It's just that for men, the areas that they face issues with because of their gender are under explored by feminists who are primarily concerned with the issues of women.  

 

The problem people have with feminsim is the unyielding assumption that women are somehow perfect, and if only the men changed/society changed etc then women would be equal. Did it ever occur to them that maybe women have to make changes too?

[Abreo]

This is the problem a lot of people have with feminism. Feminsim makes the assumption that all underepresentation of women is caused by external factors. What if it's not? What if there are factors of choice made by women, or just factors intrinsic to women themselves that do this.

 

This is actually true, I've heard about two reasons why women make less money then men do. 

 

1.)  Women go through pregnancy - that may seem like a sexists reason to make less money but it really isn't. When you're not at work for however long your maternity leave it you're... well not at work. People have to perform your job duties (which makes the boss think highly of them) there may have to be a temp working as your replacement (with may be bad for you depending on if the temp performs your job better than you do) you won't be there to work or to speak to (so if there's any reason to hand out some very important work that will bring a raise or just make the employee who handles it look better in the eyes of the boss you won't be there) and so on. Even a month or so of your absence from work can have a pretty hefty effect in terms of money you might otherwise be making if something big or a lot of small things happen. You can also go on unpaid maternity leave depending on your job and that would mean that men at work make more dough than you do since paternity leave isn't as popular of an idea.

 

Unpaid maternity leave sucks but its not sexist assuming every other type of leave generally goes unpaid if at all possible. 

 

Women in the workforce are also less likely to work a full-time schedule and are more likely to leave the labor force for longer periods of time than men, further suppressing women's wages. These differing work patterns lead to an even larger earnings gap between men and women - suggesting that working women are penalized for their dual roles as wage earners and those who disproportionately care for home and family.

http://usgovinfo.about.com/cs/censusstatistic/a/womenspay.htm

 

The article seems to take the position that thats sexist but I don't think it is. There really is no way you can't have your job suffer due to an absence at work, even in a completely nonsexist environment that fully supports women and their desire to be both good employees and mothers, taking long periods off of work will almost never do your career any good and therefore in a way it's going to hurt your career. 

 

2.) Women are either biologically wired or environmentally taught to take less risks, especially if they have kids. I read this in a book called Why Popcorn Costs So Much at the Movies and it was more intelligent than the name suggests. Basically the idea is that men will take risks, and if they're lucky or really talented these risks will pay off and they'll get raises and the whole thing. They do this to impress women, because even women who aren't all that shallow still care about the amount of money their partner makes. Women themselves are less likely to take risks, which may be beneficial in the sense that women are less likely to be homeless, but not being willing to take a risk at your job makes you look bad to your boss. 

 

Here's an article I found on the subject it says that men are willing to take more financial risks and women are willing to take more social risks. 

http://www.usnews.com/science/articles/2011/07/29/who-takes-risks

 

Heres another article thats slightly dated but still does a great job at deciding how much of this difference in pay is due to sexism. 

 

It's predicted that women only make 77 cents on the male dollar but when you take everything into consideration its actually 91 cents when all variables are equal. 

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1983185,00.html

 

So basically sexism definitely still exists but there are other reasons for the pay gap as well. It's all a bit of a bummer really. 

[Loxi]

Every piece of evidence presented came from studies I have read over the course of months, however, my computer got  a virus the other day, so I can't use it and get the history, and this computer can't handle more than one tab and  one program open without crashing, or I'd search myself. All of it can easily be checked by simple searches.

The case where the women impregnated themselves using semen left in a condom or from oral actually happened, and the women WERE awarded support, I read both in valid, non-biased news sources, and they can easily be searched. Sperm does not die until it is dried. In two separate cases women used semen from condoms, one transferred them to special cups and forged the paperwork at a fertility clinic, and one did it more...naturally, as did the woman who held the semen in her mouth and then transferred it.

I know women have a lot of problems, and I know they are valid. On a whole, however, women have more help available to them, and more legal protections in place. Men, on the other hand do not have protections in place, and I would disagree on them having the upper hand. 

Although, I suppose it's pointless to argue with you. I was tempted just to answer back "Oh for goodness sake, do you also think that it's impossible for a traditional "majority" to face discrimination?" but that's not what debate is about. 

[Tim]

You are absolutely correct, and you didn't even touch upon the fact that men are required to act shit in and careless.  It is looked down on by society for a man to have female friends or do anything spontaneous or "childish". Although women have also been assigned the "stupid" stereotype, I feel that in general men have it worse off in these regards.

[Latch33570]

Loxi good going.

 

[Josh Braun]

It's almost impossible to know.