Calling all religious debate nerdfighters

[The Black Knight]

EDIT: Wow, I did not expect so many replies, nor did I expect so many people insulting myself. Jeez guys, I apologize.

I HAVE NO OPINION ON THIS

But I would like you to read this, for perspective..not even sure what kind of perspective, just want to share this story I found. Its not as long as it seems, there are a lot of spaces in between basically every line.


This story is very long, but very enlightening, at least for me it was. Maybe some of you have read this before.

God vs Science

A science professor begins his school year with a lecture to the students, "Let me explain the problem science has with religion." The atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his new students to stand.

"You're a Christian, aren't you, son?"

"Yes sir," the student says.

"So you believe in God?"

"Absolutely."

"Is God good?"

"Sure! God's good."

"Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?"

"Yes."

"Are you good or evil?"

"The Bible says I'm evil."

The professor grins knowingly. "Aha! The Bible!" He considers for a moment. "Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you can cure him. You can do it. Would you help him? Would you try?"

"Yes sir, I would."

"So you're good...!"

"I wouldn't say that."

"But why not say that? You'd help a sick and maimed person if you could. Most of us would if we could. But God doesn't."

The student does not answer, so the professor continues. "He doesn't, does he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer, even though he prayed to Jesus to heal him. How is this Jesus good? Hmmm? Can you answer that one?"

The student remains silent.

"No, you can't, can you?" the professor says. He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax.

"Let's start again, young fella. Is God good?"

"Er...yes," the student says.

"Is Satan good?"

The student doesn't hesitate on this one. "No."

"Then where does Satan come from?"

The student falters. "From God"

"That's right. God made Satan, didn't he? Tell me, son. Is there evil in this world?"

"Yes, sir."

"Evil's everywhere, isn't it? And God did make everything, correct?"

"Yes."

"So who created evil?" The professor continued, "If God created everything, then God created evil, since evil exists, and according to the principle that our works define who we are, then God is evil."

Again, the student has no answer. "Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things, do they exist in this world?"

The student squirms on his feet. "Yes."

"So who created them?"

The student does not answer again, so the professor repeats his question. "Who created them?" There is still no answer. Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace in front of the classroom. The class is mesmerized. "Tell me," he continues onto another student. "Do you believe in Jesus Christ, son?"

The student's voice betrays him and cracks. "Yes, professor, I do."

The old man stops pacing. "Science says you have five senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Have you ever seen Jesus?"

"No sir. I've never seen Him."

"Then tell us if you've ever heard your Jesus?"

"No, sir, I have not."

"Have you ever felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelt your Jesus? Have you ever had any sensory perception of Jesus Christ, or God for that matter?"

"No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't."

"Yet you still believe in him?"

"Yes."

"According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your God doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son?"

"Nothing," the student replies. "I only have my faith."

"Yes, faith," the professor repeats. "And that is the problem science has with God. There is no evidence, only faith."

The student stands quietly for a moment, before asking a question of His own. "Professor, is there such thing as heat?"

"Yes," the professor replies. "There's heat."

"And is there such a thing as cold?"

"Yes, son, there's cold too."

"No sir, there isn't."

The professor turns to face the student, obviously interested. The room suddenly becomes very quiet. The student begins to explain. "You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, unlimited heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat, but we don't have anything called 'cold'. We can hit up to 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold; otherwise we would be able to go colder than the lowest -458 degrees."

"Every body or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-458 F) is the total absence of heat. You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it."

Silence across the room. A pen drops somewhere in the classroom, sounding like a hammer.

"What about darkness, professor. Is there such a thing as darkness?"

"Yes," the professor replies without hesitation. "What is night if it isn't darkness?"

"You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something; it is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light, but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the word."

"In reality, darkness isn't. If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker, wouldn't you?"

The professor begins to smile at the student in front of him. This will be a good semester. "So what point are you making, young man?"

"Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start with, and so your conclusion must also be flawed."

The professor's face cannot hide his surprise this time. "Flawed? Can you explain how?"

"You are working on the premise of duality," the student explains. "You argue that there is life and then there's death; a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science can't even explain a thought."

"It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life, just the absence of it."

"Now tell me, professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?"

"If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes, of course I do."

"Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?"

The professor begins to shake his head, still smiling, as he realizes where the argument is going. A very good semester, indeed.

"Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a preacher?"

The class is in uproar. The student remains silent until the commotion has subsided.

"To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, let me give you an example of what I mean."

The student looks around the room. "Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor's brain?" The class breaks out into laughter.

"Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's brain, felt the professor's brain, touched or smelt the professor's brain? No one appears to have done so. So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain, with all due respect, sir."

"So if science says you have no brain, how can we trust your lectures, sir?"

Now the room is silent. The professor just stares at the student, his face unreadable.

Finally, after what seems an eternity, the old man answers. "I guess you'll have to take them on faith."

"Now, you accept that there is faith, and, in fact, faith exists with life," the student continues. "Now, sir, is there such a thing as evil?"

Now uncertain, the professor responds, "Of course, there is. We see it everyday. It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil."

To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light."

The professor sat down.

discuss.

[The Black Knight]

Seriously you guys, you always argue about stuff and I finally found something that may pass my point (that I never bother to discuss) and maybe it would calm it all down. (or did it all calm down and I am restarting it?), anyways I dont want this to start a flame war, I would like it to start a discussion.

[The Lonely Scribe]

The problem with that is that I can tell the proffessor has a brain because of the way he behaves, e.g. intelligently. I can tell evolution exists because of fossil records and scientific thinking. But God does not have any kinds of effect on the world that can be detected and traced back to Him. Therefore, the studends point is a good one, but does not point to the unlikely existance of a God.

[Fire_Eyed_boy_]

What God does have is the seemingly random occurance that led you to be in the chair your sitting it. Your birth, Evolution, the creation of the Earth, the Big Bang, all incredible feats, your so unlikely that another force had to be the cause of it.

[Übereil]

Prehaps. What can we say about this force, then?

[Fire_Eyed_boy_]

That we can never be entirely sure of exactly what this force is, but the existence of a so called God is apparent. I think that various cultures have came up with their own variation of said Omnipotent being whether they be Polytheism or Monotheism, and the differance between those gods are negligible, if not entirely false. I think that every culture has had a different interpretation of the same being, and said being is simply the creator, and prophets he has sent were sometimes failed attempts to correct his work.

[XOX]

I came from a culture of pagan worship. It is quite cultural and people do whatever they like with these pagan gods. And it is quite different from the christian concept that god is the big boss that control all things. It is very different around here. Even the concept of hell is different when only the worst kind of bad guy would ever go to hell, no matter which gods he or she believed in.

[Übereil]

So Chistianity and Germanic Neopaganism are acually the same religion with negligible differences? Right...

(I use Germanic Neopaganism because I'm from Sweden, and that's what Swedes used to believe in.)

To continue, how can we know that any of these things are true? How can we know that the Christian prophets didn't just make it up? What proof do we have of what/who this creator is?

[shouldbejaime]

Yeah I'm with Ubereil on this one. The differences are huge. All pagan gods contain 2 basic similarities.

* They can be manipulated by people
* They reflect the duality of humanity

The Christian, Jewish and Muslim God (same God, different views) is radically different. This God is not there to be manipulated. We are in servitude to God instead of the other way around. Also nowhere in pagan beliefs is the idea offered that suffering is good. That suffering can lead to a better existence. The Christian Jewish and Muslim faiths all hold that to be true

[bookfinder]

Exactly, because without a brain, the professor would not be able to speak, think, control bodily functions, and live. Evolution can be seen with time and experiments with fruit flies. And Relinquished said, god does not have any kind of effect on this earth that can be traced back to him. I'm an atheist and even thought the student believes in god, I still agree with him on the fact that we cannot measure cold, and the absence of light thing.

[Beckoneko]

Have you never heard of the many good deeds done in God's name? Red Cross, YMCA, Salvation Army, Catholic Relief Services, St. Jude's hospital, God's kitchen, and countless other non-profit organizations were built to help those in need because of someone's faith in God, and Christ's teachings that we should help our neighbors. At my church, I am a minister to the sick, and we visit people who are home-bound to bring a piece of church to them. We had a seminar yesterday, and a woman who is the daughter and care-giver of one of the group we bring communion to. She said that when we visit her mother, she talks, laughs, and is full of life. Then once we leave, she just lays in bed and stares at the wall, never saying a word all week until someone visits her again. Many of the caretakers are also glad to have company, and someone new to talk to. Yesterday was the first time in two years that the woman (Theresa) had been out of her house.
And micro-evolution can be proven through fossils, but there are missing links to prove macro-evolution. I mean, if you look at it, there are many similarities in all living things. If you look at the world's rivers, it looks like the circulatory system. Of how the naturally occurring frequencies in the atmosphere are at the same frequency as brain waves. And how our toes slightly resemble birds' talons. It is hard to make the argument that similarities mean that one is a descendant of another species.

[XOX]

All that could be done without the involvement of nasty religion.

Hate the church. Wouldn't give a cent to any charity associated with those horrible church.

I support non profit organization as long as it got nothing to do with religion.

[Kenny]

If you look at the world's rivers, it looks like the circulatory system

Looking at rivers only requires 2 dimensions, looking at the circulatory system requires all 3. The two aren't even comparable.

And how our toes slightly resemble birds' talons. It is hard to make the argument that similarities mean that one is a descendant of another species.

Yeah, it's definitely just a coincidence that elephants look like bald woolly mammoths.