Christianity and Communism

[Mike Bogue]

One of the thoughts that I have been considering on my considerable ride home from work recently is the relationship between Christianity and communism. To be clear I am talking about the idealized communism that Marx envisoned and not the militaristic versions that have been seen in reality (USSR, China, Cambodia...) and the reason that I choose Christianity is that I do not feel that I know enough about other faiths to speak for them.
The basic tenant of Christianity is to
-Feed the hungry
-Clothe the naked
-Care for the poor
In other words we need to take care of each other, because we are all God's creatures and that means that none of us is more important than any other. This would seem to coincide very well with the ideals of Marxism where is was stated
"To each according to his need, from each according to his ability"

I have heard this paticular line referenced several times on conservative talk radio in reference to liberals and government run social programs. I do not have a problem with that reference as these social programs do tend to follow a "Marxist" ideal, but isn't it also true that they are following a Christian ideal. The talk radio host talks about how he is very Christian, but at the same time decries social programs as communist and therefore very bad which seems unchristian in my opinion.

[Twigg]

Alas, the immortal question on the inequality of man.

Charity, which is what Christianity endorses as a way to lead a good life, would be helping a man with no thought of return. I.E. giving someone who is hungry food. The idea being that if you give a man food in this life, you will get rewarded in the next life.

In Communist societies charity cannot exist because each man receives in return what he can contribute, no more or less. So you may give a man food, but society gives you something in return, thusly its not charity, not selfless, and therefore not a Christian idea.

You've mixed up charity with exchange. So the two don't really coordinate.

[Chip, A Former Ningmaster]

Isn't Christian charity an exchange then? I give something up now in hopes of receiving something (entrance into heaven?) later. It's certainly not selfless if I'm doing it because I want God to like me, let me into heaven, etc.

[Kenny]

Twigg, I think you have it a little bit backwards. Like Chip said, Christianity is an exchange. Do good things now, get rewarded later; do bad things now, get punished later. In a communist society, there is a lot of exchange, but there's also a lot of charity. Those with the most are expected to give to those with nothing, while expecting no repayment, in this life or any other.

[Twigg]

When are they expected to give without receiving in exchange? As soon as they take something from the whole they've received back from society and are irrevocably tied into the whole,thats the point of communism, so in reality even if they only take once and contribute for their whole lives, then they're still not in a charity system.

Christianity is charity because good deeds don't get you into heaven, faith in God does. So leading a good life isn't really an exchange its doing something because thats what a Christian does.

Its not:
Give to homeless? -> You're christian -> Heaven.
It is:
Believe in God and Jesus -> You're christian -> do good deeds in the name of God? -> Heaven.

[Mike Bogue]

I would disagree about that. Communism would state that everyone shares with everyone else which I would classify as a universal charity.

[Hel]

If you're talking about Marx's ideas of communism then the two ideas are not at all compatible. Above and beyond communism Marxism itself is all about the repression and alienation of the working classes, and the fact that the ruling classes create the dominant ideology in a society to suit their own needs. Christianity is a dominant ideology in a lot of Western society and is commonly re-enforced by the ruling classes as it helps them to continue to rule, though in reality many of the ruling classes do not hold Christian beliefs themselves (only pretend to e.g. there has never been a publicly none-Christian American president yet I doubt that every president was a true Christian).

The Christian ideas of equality are entirely different to that of a Marxist. A Christian wishes for equality as they feel that all humans are equal in the eyes of God (all are inferior to God Himself) thus should be treated equally. A Marxist wishes for equality in order to rid society of exploitation. Christianity focuses on transcendence; Marxism purely on the material.

[sabelmouse]

marxism must focus on the material as all religions seem to urge accepance of abuse of power by the victims.
so while religion can be a greathelp to copig it will prevent people from changing things for the better here and now.
or at least as it is mostly practised. i am sure it need not be this way.

[danman]

They come from a different basis, but are compatible to the extent that they can coexist.
Indeed the orthodox church had no problem with marxism-leninism, and even in my country in the roman catholic church there was a movement between the priests named Pacem im Terris, which advocated exactly what this guy says and cooperation with the socialist govt. but was put down by reactionaries in Vatican

[Hel]

That's not pure Marxist, though. That's actually kind of funny because they're basically doing exactly what Marx claimed that the bourgiousie were doing - using religion in order to make people cooperate with the ruling class; in this case the government.

Fundamentally there can be no sprituality within Marxism, nothing which in any way departs from the material world because Marx's ideology came from the basic idea that all that there is is the material.

[Mike Bogue]

Regardless of weather the ideas are mutually exclusive from each other the basic goal is the same from an idealistic view. The practice of both communism and christianity have each gone against the views that they hold as the ideal, the question that I am talking about is how compatable are the ideals.

[Ingrid]

The basic tenants of Christianity are expressed in the Apostles' Creed and the Nicene Creed

Apostle's Creed

I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
Creator of Heaven and Earth
And in Jesus Christ
His only Son, Our Lord
Who was conceived of the Holy Spirit
Born of the Virgin Mary
Suffered under Pontius Pilate
Was crucified, died and was buried.
On the third day, he rose again
He ascended into Heaven
and is seated at the right hand
of God, the Father Almighty.
He will come again to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the Holy Catholic Church,
the Communion of Saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting.


Nicene Creed

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
and of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, one in Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation,
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered, died, and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in fulfillment of the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge
the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit,
the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he
is worshipped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic
and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism
for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come.


As Christians we are expected to do many things, feeding the poor and clothing the naked are only two of the seven corporal works of mercy "charity". We are also to practice spiritual acts of mercy, admonish sinners,instruct the ignorant,counsel the doubtful, bear wrongs patiently, forgive injuries, and pray for the living and the dead.
Christians do works of charity because we are to love one another and do as Jesus did. Voluntarily helping each other through God's love is very, very different than any tenant of Communism. Even the communalism practiced by the early church was one of communal sharing of consumer goods, not of means of production and still required private ownership. The concept of private property is approved by God in the Ten Commandments. "Thou shalt not steal" only makes any sense if you can actual own something. Jesus told his followers to give of themselves for others. Jesus never told them to force others to do so or to use force to steal their resources to give them to the poor. Communism does both.

[Mike Bogue]

Unless I misunderstand communism the idea is that once the oppressive ruling class has been deposed and a system is established where people are all equal then, essentially everyone will want to share what they have with others and suffering will be eliminated. This would mean that there is no force or stealing.