Nerdfighters

BEFORE YOU RESPOND: Read the post IN FULL. THIS IS NOT saying that women who dress provocatively are in part responsable for being raped. This is saying that women who dress provactively are contributing to a climate of objectification which will, in the end, lead to people who will view women as objects to be dominated.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-13739876

 

This newstory highlighted this issue in my mind, along with a discussion I had with the person who helped organise an event like this in Canada. I'd like to shift the terms of the debate a little to make people see that this isn't one way.

 

The problem with these events in my mind, is that they massively oversimplify to the point of demonising men.

 

Now at this point, I should say, that in no way do I detract any responsability from the rapist in the rape scenerio. The rapist, asuming they are of sound mind, has complete responsability for his actions. They are capable of deciding what to do with their own bodies, and if they will attack/damage the bodies of others. However, to look at their motivations, we must look at our culture.

 

Part of this protest's main issue was the claim that we live in a culture where it is taught that women should avoid rape, rather than that men should not rape. That's absurd. Everyone knows that rape is wrong. No one needs teaching that. It is axiomatical. Telling someone who does rape that isn't going to change anything. Instead, we have to look deeper at our culture to understand what is wrong.

 

The problem, as far as I see it, is objectification. A rapist does not view their victim as a person equal to themselves. If they did, they most likly would not go through with the rape, simple as. Instead, they have objectified their target, turned them into something which they desire power over, an object to own and dominate.

 

A culture that accepts objectification, is however, a two way thing. While a woman who wears a skimpy outfit is in no way in the immediate situation causing herself to be raped, or somehow making herself take any of the responsability away from any potential rapist, it should be pointed out that such outfits contribute to a culture of objectification, which is going to make rape more likly.

 

The fact of the matter is that provocative outfits are also objectifying outfits. Regardless of how a woman feels about them, how a man views them is different. In my view, women at some stage have to stand up and take some responsabilty for the culture of rape we exist within. Right now, the way that feminisim is, you simply cannot counter attack without being labeled a mysoginist. Naturally, this is a two way street. Women have to stop self-objectifying and men need to stop presuing women to objectify themselves. There is very much such a thing as elegent beauty without raunch culture. We need to remember this.

Views: 1151

Reply to This

Replies to This Discussion

And women don’t objectify themselves. Men objectify the women.

 

But women do wear clothing that will encourage men to do that. Hence the objectification.

Men do objectify women, but women also objectify themselves. Here's a rather good article explaining it.

Which is what I have been saying...thank you.

Let's look at it this way. There's a psychotic madman waving a gun outside my house. I run out with a rubber chicken, look him in the eye, and comment upon his mother's promiscuity. I proceed to get shot in my groin. Is it my fault that my family jewels are now lying in a pool of blood 10 feet away? Hell no. The 28th amendment clearly gives me the right to insult a man's mother in the presence of a rubber chicken. But there are very clear steps I could have taken to avoid being shot. Should we be teaching the general populace how not to be psychotic madmen, or should I be less of a douchebag, even though I was perfectly entitled to call his mother the best whore on the dollar menu, and that she has the saggiest pair of earlobes I have ever seen, and that she...

 

Hmm. Somewhere, I think i got a little off topic. Oh well. I think I've made my point (?)

While I do agree that women are contributing to the problem of objectification, I don't think that the issue here is the clothing.  I think you're off base to say that the outfit contributes to objectification. I think your beliefs have fallen victim to what society tells you. They say that it's okay (or at least normal) to treat/think of women who are scantily clad or showing a little cleavage as less than human. That's something that goes back to a time where women were supposed to cover up and show as little skin as possible when usually ment that you only saw their face and maybe their hands. Honestly I think you misunderstood what they were saying a little. It shouldn't matter what a women is wearing. I don't care if she's naked, WE ALL need to teach our sons, daughters, brothers, sisters, and friends that under no circumstances is it okay to objectify anyone or rape anyone. Also, obviously not everyone knows that rape isn't okay or was taught that or we wouldn't be having this conversation. If you'd be kind enough to personally respond I want you to think about why do you think it's okay for men to walk around half naked (no shirt) but if I'm wearing a low-cut shirt, even if everything else I'm wearing is covering me, I'm wearing provocative clothing and contributing to objectification which, according to you, contributes to rape. Now something I'd like to point out is that I know a girl who was brutally raped in my college dorm in the room next to mine and I know for a fact she wasn't wearing anything "provocative". She looked like "the girl next door" which leads me to believe that what a woman is wearing has absolutely nothing to do with rape and that the issue is men (I know this isn't all men) that don't know that no means no. It doesn't matter if she invited you into her home( Apartment, Dorm, whatever), if she is wearing something you think is sexy, if she kissed you, or if she danced with you or anything else. NO means NO. If she is drunk yes means NO.

I think your beliefs have fallen victim to what society tells you. They say that it's okay (or at least normal) to treat/think of women who are scantily clad or showing a little cleavage as less than human.

 

At what point have I suggested such a thing. I'm going to say this till I am blue in the fingers if I have to. I am NOT saying that women who wear slutty clothing deserve to get raped.

 

WE ALL need to teach our sons, daughters, brothers, sisters, and friends that under no circumstances is it okay to objectify anyone or rape anyone.

 

I agree with you here, but arn't women who wear slutty clothes simply not helping the point if they are going about objectifying themselves.

 

Also, obviously not everyone knows that rape isn't okay or was taught that or we wouldn't be having this conversation.

 

Please. The vast majority of the time, people don't do bad things because they don't know those things are bad. They do it because they don't care.  

 

Now something I'd like to point out is that I know a girl who was brutally raped in my college dorm in the room next to mine and I know for a fact she wasn't wearing anything "provocative".

 

You've misunderstood me. Again. Like about a thousand other people on this thread. I have not, am not, and will not say "People who wear slutty clothes are more likly to get raped" that isn't what I am saying. I'm saying that they contribute to a culture of objectification which adds to the likelihood of people commuting rape. I am not suggesting that the victims of rape are somehow responsible.

At what point have I suggested such a thing. I'm going to say this till I am blue in the fingers if I have to. I am NOT saying that women who wear slutty clothing deserve to get raped.

On the other hand you've insinuated that it's perfectly ok (and only natural, really) to not take them seriously.

Please. The vast majority of the time, people don't do bad things because they don't know those things are bad. They do it because they don't care.

They do it because they don't think they have to worry that it's bad. The easiest explanation to why is that they don't really think it's wrong - at least not in this case.

On the other hand you've insinuated that it's perfectly ok (and only natural, really) to not take them seriously.

 

No, I havn't. What I have said is that is what people do. I accept that this isn't a good thing and that people should stop. I have said on several occasions, men need to change too. The reason I am bringing up the female responsability is because that is what people most resist. 


They do it because they don't think they have to worry that it's bad. The easiest explanation to why is that they don't really think it's wrong - at least not in this case.

 

No, the easiest explaination is that they are dismissing the fact that its wrong. If you were to take a thief and explain to them why stealing is wrong, chances are they wouldn't disagree with you, they're not some kind of anti-property anarchists etc most of the time. But they just dismissis it.

Okay I understand that. What I'm saying is that the definition of what is slutty and what isn't is a matter of perspective. I don't think mini-skirts or cleavage are slutty. What is your definition of provocative attire? I think really the problem that the two are going to really disagree on is that question. Also if we didn't label those things as sexy or whatever, which was really the point I was trying to make before, and we treated them as much the norm as pants and a t-shirt then would they honestly be contributing to anything? I'm not saying that you are blaming the victims in anyway but when you say I am not suggesting that the victims of rape are somehow responsible I have to disagree with you. You may not have intended to imply that (I honestly do believe that you would never actually place blame on the victim) but the way you have phrased your argument that's the way it reads. What I've gathered is that what your saying is it's kinda like you should know not to walk around outside, especially in flat areas where you are the tallest thing, in a thunderstorm. If you get struck by lightning it's not your fault you can't predict that kind of thing but by being outside you are upping the probability the lightning is going to hit something and that something may or may not be you.

But you are saying that they are, indirectly.

Yep.

 

Women are responsible for objectification -----> Men objectifying women------------->Women getting raped

This is a different point to the one that Vertigo One was making, but I feel it's relevant to the argument nonetheless. And Kenny made the same or a similar one earlier, but I think it bears repeating.

I have a friend who whenever I lend him money doesn't return it. I've had this friend over a year now and I'm well aware of this pattern, so much so that whenever I "lend" him money I don't expect to see it back. I'm sure some of you have similar friends. The other day I ended up leaving him a receipt to go and collect 50 pounds that a mutual friend of ours owed me (long story). End result is that the money has now been spent, and I probably won't see it all again (I can only hope some of it will come back).

Clearly my friend is the one responsible for the spending of the money, or the deed. And while I did not deserve what happened I am still partially to blame because despite knowing this friend's history with finances I set up a situation where it was very likely to happen.

The way this applies to the current debate is obvious, if not controversial. If a person puts themselves in a situation where they are likely to be raped, they are partially to blame. By which I don't mean walking down the street at day in a provocative outfit, I mean more along the lines of being drunk and walking home in the dead of night round a dodgy part of town.

Which isn't to say they deserved it or that the world should tolerate rapists, it is merely an observation that if you expose yourself to danger you shouldn't be wholly surprised when it hurts you. If I was to go swimming in a pond full of crocodiles and was eaten the deed would be the crocodiles, but I would still be partially to blame for my fate.

The difficulty is that rape cases can vary from highly inebriated sex to premeditated attacks. If a drunk girl goes home with a guy after a night out and then calls rape you have to wonder what she was expecting. If a girl is attacked walking through a dodgy area in the dead of night the same applies to a lesser degree. The world isn't a nice place, and people should understand that.

And before you call sexist on me, that philosophy goes for all kinds of crime. I don't leave my wallet at the bus stop and expect it to be there when I get back.

----

The culture of objectification that V1 references is interesting, but I believe it's partly natural. I think men are predisposed to look at women as objects. We are enticed by hourglass shaped bodies, nicely proportioned boobs and bums. I think women are more attracted to men by behavioural ticks - a confident walk, authoritative tone of voice. Equally shallow, but focusing on a more abstract quality; there are confident nice guys and confident arseholes. But that's just my opinion.

RSS

Youtube Links!

Here are some YT links to channels related to Nerdfighteria and educational content!

*Can you think of any more? Pass along any suggestions to an Admin who will then add it to this list should it fit!

© 2014   Created by Hank Green.   Powered by

Badges  |  Report an Issue  |  Terms of Service