Female responsabilty for the culture of rape

[Vertigo_One [Ops Mod]]

BEFORE YOU RESPOND: Read the post IN FULL. THIS IS NOT saying that women who dress provocatively are in part responsable for being raped. This is saying that women who dress provactively are contributing to a climate of objectification which will, in the end, lead to people who will view women as objects to be dominated.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-13739876

 

This newstory highlighted this issue in my mind, along with a discussion I had with the person who helped organise an event like this in Canada. I'd like to shift the terms of the debate a little to make people see that this isn't one way.

 

The problem with these events in my mind, is that they massively oversimplify to the point of demonising men.

 

Now at this point, I should say, that in no way do I detract any responsability from the rapist in the rape scenerio. The rapist, asuming they are of sound mind, has complete responsability for his actions. They are capable of deciding what to do with their own bodies, and if they will attack/damage the bodies of others. However, to look at their motivations, we must look at our culture.

 

Part of this protest's main issue was the claim that we live in a culture where it is taught that women should avoid rape, rather than that men should not rape. That's absurd. Everyone knows that rape is wrong. No one needs teaching that. It is axiomatical. Telling someone who does rape that isn't going to change anything. Instead, we have to look deeper at our culture to understand what is wrong.

 

The problem, as far as I see it, is objectification. A rapist does not view their victim as a person equal to themselves. If they did, they most likly would not go through with the rape, simple as. Instead, they have objectified their target, turned them into something which they desire power over, an object to own and dominate.

 

A culture that accepts objectification, is however, a two way thing. While a woman who wears a skimpy outfit is in no way in the immediate situation causing herself to be raped, or somehow making herself take any of the responsability away from any potential rapist, it should be pointed out that such outfits contribute to a culture of objectification, which is going to make rape more likly.

 

The fact of the matter is that provocative outfits are also objectifying outfits. Regardless of how a woman feels about them, how a man views them is different. In my view, women at some stage have to stand up and take some responsabilty for the culture of rape we exist within. Right now, the way that feminisim is, you simply cannot counter attack without being labeled a mysoginist. Naturally, this is a two way street. Women have to stop self-objectifying and men need to stop presuing women to objectify themselves. There is very much such a thing as elegent beauty without raunch culture. We need to remember this.

[Vertigo_One [Ops Mod]]

Isn't that the same thing?

 

No. Creating a culture is a bigger, more nebulous problem. Clearly, the evidence suggests that its not women dressing provocatively that causes them to be raped (see the fact that women get raped whatever they wear) but there is something strong about the culture of the desire for sex that changes things.

[Kenny]

there is something strong about the culture of the desire for sex that changes things.

 

That's not the culture, that's the species.

[Madeleine]

The culture of the desire for sex

 

Rape does not come from a desire for sex. Rape could come from several motivations, most of them involving power or anger.

[Matthew Bell]

I think the main issue that I have with your argument Vertigo is that is doesnt just deal with the topic of rape, but also the topic of gender as well.  It is the women who are objectified and the men who objectify.  this isnt true though Vertigo, men are also pressured to look good, dress in an appealing way etc. Women objectify men and in turn treat them less than they are worth, that is why you find women sexually harrasing men among other things.

 

I think this conversation would be better with we took gender out of the running and just laid down general principles of how objectification can be stopped.

[Vertigo_One [Ops Mod]]

It is the women who are objectified and the men who objectify.  this isnt true though Vertigo, men are also pressured to look good, dress in an appealing way etc.

 

I don't think that is true to anywhere near the same extent as it is with women. If it is the case, why do we see not female equivlents of things like Playboy or Loaded etc.

 

 

[Kenny]

I don't think that is true to anywhere near the same extent as it is with women.

 

Not that you would ever let anything like a scientific source affect your opinion on any matter, but here are a few anyway

 

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2010/11/11/boys-self-esteem-p...

http://scienceblog.com/46286/no-difference-in-womens-and-mens-self-...

http://psychcentral.com/blog/archives/2008/10/07/eating-disorders-i...

 

If it is the case, why do we see not female equivlents of things like Playboy or Loaded etc

 

Where should I start?  Maybe it's because of the fact that men's and women's brains work a little differently in this regard.  Where men typically need to be looking at something arousing in order for it to keep them aroused, women can typically be aroused by the thought of the arousing things.  Women have much more visual imaginations and don't need to same visual stimulus men do.

 

Or maybe because all women are turned on by different things.  Men all have their own preferences as well, but if you were to take a picture of a Playboy model a high enough percentage of men would be able to agree it's sexy to allow for Playboy to make money off of showing off her body.  As women's preferences vary much more than men's do, it would be very difficult to fill a magazine with images of men that would arouse a large enough amount of women that the magazine would turn a good profit.

 

Or of course it could just be that women are ashamed of buying such things in public.  Even in this enlightened day and age a lot of women would be embarrassed to buy a dirty magazine, in the past it would have been much worse, and today women can just hop on the internet and get all the porn they need.

 

Last but not least, Playgirl, Filament, and Sex Herald.  There aren't many, likely because of the reasons listed previously, but there are a few.

[Vertigo_One [Ops Mod]]

Ok, lets have a look at your sources

 

The first two are to do with self esteem in young males compared to young women. If you can show me where I said anything to the effect that young children don't suffer simmilar problems when young, I'll listen to your complaint.

 

The last one only says that more men are suffering from eating disorders than previously thought. It doesn't compare it to the number of women in the same situation.

 

Where should I start?  Maybe it's because of the fact that men's and women's brains work a little differently in this regard.

 

That's the argument I was making, and hence why the problem of objectification is worse for women. 

 

Last but not least, Playgirl, Filament, and Sex Herald.  There aren't many, likely because of the reasons listed previously, but there are a few.

 

Remind me, was my argument or was it not that it was WORSE for women. Not that it was entirely for women and none at all for men, but that it was significantly and substantially worse.

[Matthew Bell]

actually your intial argument didnt state anywhere that objectivism is worse for women.  the reason why we are pointing this out is because your argument hasnt as of yet, reached beyond the margine of women dressing prevocatively, if you changed it and talked in a more general way that contained both sexes it would not contian this hangup.  showing you that it need not be just about women we justify this course of action.

[Vertigo_One [Ops Mod]]

It isn't just about women, I agree, but the point I was making with this argument was that it is substantively and clearly more serious for women.

[Matthew Bell]

i suppose i just feel the majority of arguments aimed against you are due to the hurdle of it being about women i just wonder that if you kept it more detached (for lack of a better word) the discussion could go forward faster.

[Laura]

Hm... I don't think that the objectification caused by women dressing provocatively has the entire fault of rape. Of course, it doesn't help, but throughout the whole history, since cavemen, to nowadays, men raping women is not a new thing. And women didn't use to dress provocatively before. So clothes, is it really the issue here? I think that just as there are people with mental problems, such as eating disorders(although this are in part due to society) there's people who rape (I'm not sure if rape counts as a mental disease). Women didn't have many rights until recently, so it's something that's been here since ever.

Also, what kind of social background do rapists have? were they educated? were they raised in a violent home? etc.

[Vertigo_One [Ops Mod]]

Hm... I don't think that the objectification caused by women dressing provocatively has the entire fault of rape. Of course, it doesn't help, but throughout the whole history, since cavemen, to nowadays, men raping women is not a new thing.

 

I'm not suggesting it is. I'm suggesting this factor is compounding the problem.