Female responsabilty for the culture of rape

[Vertigo_One [Ops Mod]]

BEFORE YOU RESPOND: Read the post IN FULL. THIS IS NOT saying that women who dress provocatively are in part responsable for being raped. This is saying that women who dress provactively are contributing to a climate of objectification which will, in the end, lead to people who will view women as objects to be dominated.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-13739876

 

This newstory highlighted this issue in my mind, along with a discussion I had with the person who helped organise an event like this in Canada. I'd like to shift the terms of the debate a little to make people see that this isn't one way.

 

The problem with these events in my mind, is that they massively oversimplify to the point of demonising men.

 

Now at this point, I should say, that in no way do I detract any responsability from the rapist in the rape scenerio. The rapist, asuming they are of sound mind, has complete responsability for his actions. They are capable of deciding what to do with their own bodies, and if they will attack/damage the bodies of others. However, to look at their motivations, we must look at our culture.

 

Part of this protest's main issue was the claim that we live in a culture where it is taught that women should avoid rape, rather than that men should not rape. That's absurd. Everyone knows that rape is wrong. No one needs teaching that. It is axiomatical. Telling someone who does rape that isn't going to change anything. Instead, we have to look deeper at our culture to understand what is wrong.

 

The problem, as far as I see it, is objectification. A rapist does not view their victim as a person equal to themselves. If they did, they most likly would not go through with the rape, simple as. Instead, they have objectified their target, turned them into something which they desire power over, an object to own and dominate.

 

A culture that accepts objectification, is however, a two way thing. While a woman who wears a skimpy outfit is in no way in the immediate situation causing herself to be raped, or somehow making herself take any of the responsability away from any potential rapist, it should be pointed out that such outfits contribute to a culture of objectification, which is going to make rape more likly.

 

The fact of the matter is that provocative outfits are also objectifying outfits. Regardless of how a woman feels about them, how a man views them is different. In my view, women at some stage have to stand up and take some responsabilty for the culture of rape we exist within. Right now, the way that feminisim is, you simply cannot counter attack without being labeled a mysoginist. Naturally, this is a two way street. Women have to stop self-objectifying and men need to stop presuing women to objectify themselves. There is very much such a thing as elegent beauty without raunch culture. We need to remember this.

[Laura]

I know, that's why I said Of course, it doesn't help.

I hope that didn't sound offensive, so I'm clarifying just in case.

Do you have any suggestions as to what could be done to stop the objectification of women?

[Josh Braun]

Fix fucking society.

 

Going on the premise that there is objectification of both sexes, it is society that places pressure on men and women. 

[The Person's Ghost]

This is a really hard topic, and I must say, you have balls for bringing it up. Even if I do think you're wrong.

Personally, I don't think that the way a woman dresses has much to do with rape, because it doesn't have much to do with frustration directed at an object of desire. It's more about domination and power and thrill gained from that power. This is why plenty of people are raped who are not conventionally attractive - getting someone attractive isn't the goal, at least, not now.

The way a woman dresses might arouse a man and make her a more likely target, I'll grant you that. But was that the intention of her dress? Discarding whether it's moral or not for her to want to attract mates. The intention was to attract men to her who want consensual sex. No one, absolutely no one believes that women want to be raped if they dress scantily. And I believe responsibility could only fall to the woman if they intended to attract rapists.

Then again, I suppose if someone goes skydiving and then the parachute doesn't open, we blame the person for his demise.

The difference here is that the rape wouldn't have happened without the deliberation of another conscious being.

The culture of objectification, however, has basically nothing to do with rape O.o Rape happens often in Islamic countries where women are clad head to toe. Women were raped back in colonial days when everyone wore long, frilly dresses that covered everything. Rape happens in Haiti where I doubt many women are going around trying to be flirtatious constantly. The culture has barely anything to do with the presence of rape, it is the mindset of the rapist, and his mindset alone, that causes rape. Women cannot be help responsible, no matter what they are wearing. If you do that, you place undue blame on the women's shoulders and take blame off the rapist's. Honestly, I think because you probably think women being promiscuous and enjoying their sexuality is a sin, you want to blame them to justify your point of view - see, you get raped if this happens! Or, you think the women sort of kind ish a little bit deserved their punishment if they dare to enjoy their bodies and the power those bodies have.

Here's a question - if all women dressed in jeans and T-shirts, would rape disappear?

[Vertigo_One [Ops Mod]]

Here's a question - if all women dressed in jeans and T-shirts, would rape disappear?

 

No, but it would change the culture of it and negate it. Part of the cause would go away.

[The Person's Ghost]

The culture of rape? O.o Rape isn't really a culture, it's more like a choice on an individual basis.

[Vertigo_One [Ops Mod]]

Yes, but a culture surrounds choices. Changing the culture would lessen the impact. It wouldn't eliminate rape entirely, but it would go well towards doing so.

[The Person's Ghost]

I believe there is more evidence to show that rapists rape because of power, not because someone is sexually attractive. That attraction might help them make choices, but ultimately, if someone is set on rape, they would do it no matter what.

Show me that the rape statistics in the Middle East are significantly lower than in the US, then we'll talk. Until then, don't say that promiscuous women basically had it coming.

[Vertigo_One [Ops Mod]]

I believe there is more evidence to show that rapists rape because of power, not because someone is sexually attractive.

 

Erm, I didn't say that people rape others because of sexual attraction. I said it is a result of objectification. IE the provoactively dressed people cause the people to objectives the opposite sex, thus making them have less moral quams about rape.

 

Show me that the rape statistics in the Middle East are significantly lower than in the US, then we'll talk. Until then, don't say that promiscuous women basically had it coming.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics

 

Syria: 125

United States: 90,427

 

So...yes.

[Josh Braun]

There are serious consequences of reporting rape in certain countries like Syria. So those are just the rapes that are reported. And the US has way more people so the numbers look much more out of proportion than they should. It should be proportional to the population, so if you have that statistic, you're one step closer.

 

You also have no way of knowing that the reduced amount of reported rapes in Syria are due to the fact that they don't have a culture of objectification. In fact, unless you've pretty much grown up in Syria, or spent most of your life there.....AND studied rape and what causes it and compare it to a control group, then you can say that objectification might make a difference in either way.

[Vertigo_One [Ops Mod]]

1. The Syrian population is aprox 21 million. The population of the US is aprox 307 million. If we scale down our numbers and divide 125 by 21 and 90,427 by 307 we still get numbers that show that the US has more.

2. If you think the Syrian numbers are skewed, explain how Canada has stats of 528 (still much more than Syria, even with population taken into account)

3. I do however, have a correlation. And a correlation is an important step towards proof. And if you'll recall I was requested to find stats that said "Show me that the rape statistics in the Middle East are significantly lower than in the US, then we'll talk." So now, I've shown the stats. The person who challenged me now has to engage with my argument, since I have done as she requested.

4. Your making unreasonable demands. You have not done the same yourself to prove your arguments. Do not demand of me that which you have not done.

[Matthew Bell]

Mate Vertigo has repeatedly said it isnt about sexual attraction its about objectification, they rape because they see the person as a "thing" rather than a human bring.  Vertigo's argument is that things like how women dress, change how men percieve them e.g. objects to be looked at.  so that eventually the men just percieve them as that, objects.  He says that the objectification in the culture has to be eliminated to help lessen rape.

 

The statistics of the middle east are irrelevant because they also perceive women as objects to be used granted for far different reasons.  I think you seem to be completely off the mark in understanding what Vertigos argument is actually saying.

[Vertigo_One [Ops Mod]]

Exactly. Thank you for understanding.