Feminism, Sexism and Other Misunderstood Things

[Sara NoH]

I am a feminist.
I am heterosexual.
I occasionally wear dresses.
I usually shave my legs and underarms, unless I'm in a hurry.
I believe in equality for all.
I believe every person has basic rights.
I don't believe a fetus is a person. I believe it's a potential person which should be more valued than say, a dog; but less valued than an existing person.
I don't believe anyone is superior to anyone else.
I don't believe all____ are inherently_____. People are different, there are usually exceptions.

At it's core, I think feminism is about equality. It's not about superiority, it's not about man-hating. What do you think feminism is about? What do you think makes a feminist? Why are you or aren't you a feminist?

[Gabrielle]

@MisterShadow:

First paragraph: I still think it's counter-intuitive to use "bitch" about a misogynistic woman, but we'll agree to disagree, if that's okay with you?

Second paragraph: I wasn't really meaning other language so much as societal norms in general. I'm sure there is all sorts of sexism around the globe, but I doubt watching British shows is going to tell me if Britain really gives equal pay for equal work or not. (BtW, The Doctor can take me for a ride in his Tardis any time- BBC America ftw.)

Third paragraph: Yes, I realize women can join any branch they want, etc., in the U.S. Danman brought it up, not me. My point was that bringing up Russia in comparison to the U.S. served Katie better than him because women aren't allowed equal access to all aspects of the military in the U.S.

About the book: I've not read it, no, and I usually refrain from making judgments about stuff like that without having done so. I worded it poorly and should have said something making this judgement specific to that aspect of said book. Meaning if they say women don't get paid the same amount because they don't work the same amount, THAT part is sexist. I wasn't saying the whole book is. And no, I don't think a woman working less hours should get the same amount of pay as a man working more- but they should be given the same wage, and THAT doesn't always happen. When it comes to maternity leave, I'm a HUGE proponent of paternity leave, too- the father should be able to take paid time off from work when he gets a kid, and the fact that this is so rare really, really irks me.

Last paragraph: Repeat response to first.

@Danman:

I'm not going to go after each paragraph, but two things.

First, so as to maintain my own reputation, in case anybody believes the image you're trying to mold of me here: I am exceptionally disappointed you'd get the impression I don't care about classism. Actually, classism is one of the biggest causes I fought against in college and plan to fight against once I'm done with graduate school. I am thus, by no means, belittling or denying its existence. I just think you're being rudely dismissive of the points being made on this thread for the sake of classist arguments. I'm not saying every bloody form of discrimination evar comes from sexim, and I'm not saying classism is never involved- oftentimes, both can be happening simultaneously to the same person.

Second, that was pretty low and petty of you, the smiley. I think that says a lot about your style and character, you doing it completely deliberately that time. Any respect I had for you was lost by that. Because of this, I am not going to bother countering anything else you have to say. If you're going to patronize me, I'm done with you.

[MisterShadow]

We can definitely agree to disagree on the whole idea of whether or not the term "bitch" is inherently misogynistic.

On pretty much everything else... Oh, I see.

As to the book, if they are taking a salary paying job, they're not making a wage. They're making a certain amount per year, not hour. What I think danman was saying, is that they broke down the amount of time that the average male worker worked as compared to the average female worker, and saw a difference in amount of time worked. That being the case, and paternity leave not always being available, why should a male worker and a female worker make the same amount of money yearly when there is more work on average done by the male worker than the female worker? I personally feel that the company should allow both paternity leave and maternity leave, pay the same amount yearly for both, BUT if people do take maternity and paternity leave they should not be paid for that time yet not face the fear of being fired for missing work. It's a personal choice for you to have a baby, not a company choice. If you're not doing the work they're paying you to do, then you shouldn't expect to be paid for it. If anything at all, it should be a fraction of what you would be making if you were actually working, and that's only if the company is nice. When you're not there, someone else has to pick up your slack and they're not being paid more for doing it.

[Gabrielle]

@MisterShadow

We're on the same page about time worked vs. time paid. Everything you said is what I was getting at, so yeah.

[Kenny]

I think Gabrielle did a great job defending herself from this unconscionable on slot of male aggression.

Well maybe we males would be less unconscionably aggressive if you bitches would just GET THE FUCK IN THE KITCHEN AND MAKE US SOME SAMMICHES!!!

[sabelmouse]

i thought the class vs gender dfebate was done and over decates ago.
it's like being back in the seventies, man!

[Emisanerdfighter]

YES. I agree with this.
And as an aspiring film maker, it annoys the crap out of me that women aren't considered as hard-working and talented as the men in the field. The numbers of female film makers are just sad. Film schools are even apparently hesitant to accept girls. I mean, that's not the only reason I'm a feminist, but it's still something that bothers me.

[Alyssa Batchelor]

feminists, ftw.

[Rachel Smith]

Agreed. I'm a pretty damn strong feminist. I can't really add to what you say but to shout, "Here, here, madam!" loudly with my fist raised. Aside from the heterosexual, I blend the lines. I never really thought there was a huge different in males and females. Mostly because I've come to realized I think and feel just like a man does (I don't have gender dysphoria , but I just for some reason truly and honestly think and feel in a way that is deemed to be 'the male way'). I have a huge issue with the generalization of groups of people. Unless it's some specific group of people like, "Nazi's are pretty bad guys". I mean, fair's fair.

[Leanne]

A significant portion of the Nazis had little choice whether or not they would join. It was really more of a "if you can't beat 'em (or run from them), join 'em" attitude. Kind of like repressed communists during the McCarthy era. Likewise, the anti-semites were mostly just brainwashed due to propaganda and mob mentality. Does that make them bad people? They're more just jelly-minded.

[sabelmouse]

just because i came across this in the guardian this morning




Natasha Walter: 'I believed sexism in our culture would wither away. I was entirely wrong'

The author of The New Feminism talks about challenging the resurgence of sexism in her new book, Living Dolls – and not being an angry feminist
http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2010/jan/25/natasha-walter-f...

reading this article i can't help seeing parallels with the treatment of women under sharia law or in extreme mormon sects.
i am just now reading ' the 19th wife' by david ebershoff.
has anyone read that?

[Mr Thornton to you...]

I love these arguments where people start out with the proposition that the discussion has some how already been decided, because that person, or the narrow group of people their country or state represents, have decided on the issue legally or constitutionally. It is true, in many Western countries as well as others, that women currently are protected by many of the same rights as men. However we still live in a world where women are repressed, under represented and considered lesser class citizens, or property.

How people can claim this issue is resolved is beyond me when you consider some basic facts. Women grow most of the food we eat. As much as 80% in some developing nations. Women also do the majority of the world's work. Some estimates put the figure at around 66%, or two thirds. Yet women only earn roughly 10% of total earnings and own only around 1% of the world's assets (http://www.internationalwomensday.com/facts.asp).

To me these figures do not represent a debate that has already been decided in favour of women's equality.

As for our more enlightened developed nations, it is true that women enjoy the same basic rights as men in most cases. However, it is plain that there are still issues, such as pay, that need to be addressed. The basic problem with pay, as I see it, is our old friend the supposed free market. Now the free market is brilliant at equality in that it will exploit the weakeness of any group. In women's case the constant threat of 'babies' and a women's tendancy to not have grandiose views of their own self importance, which may change and balance out as the gender gap narrows even more and indeed some evidence is already being reported on this, often results in her asking, or expecting, or being offered less in terms of renummeration. So I don't think we can ever rely on the free market to enforce moral or ethical decisions without being forced to. Love it or hate it the Free Market does as the Free Market does.

I have had the good fortune to grow up around strong minded and strong willed women, as well as equally impressive men. I appreciate the differences between the two, but am keenly aware of the contribution that each makes and how in many cases, if not most cases, those contributions are not dependent on their gender. That each group can make its own contribution and in it's own way is also undeniable and part of the beauty and variety of life.

So for me this dabate is not decided, even in those countries where some people consider it is. I sometimes despair of the phrase 'battle of the sexes.' 'Debate of the sexes' or something similar maybe, but a battle or war? Well if this is a war all I can say is that judging by the expansion of our populations there is some serious fraternising going on.

[sabelmouse]

How people can claim this issue is resolved is beyond me when you consider some basic facts. Women grow most of the food we eat. As much as 80% in some developing nations. Women also do the majority of the world's work. Some estimates put the figure at around 66%, or two thirds. Yet women only earn roughly 10% of total earnings and own only around 1% of the world's assets (http://www.internationalwomensday.com/facts.asp).

this always got to me. yet most people don't even seem to recognize that fact or dismiss it.
thank you for bringing it up.