Free will vs Fate - or Free Will vs a Divine Plan

[Übereil]

In the abortion thread a debate on free will vs divine plan came up. To quote Decepticon (because I can't be bothered with writing my own opening):

A divine plan conflicts directly with the idea of (true) free will. Every time someone deviates from the divine plan, it will create a ripple effect, 'causing other deviations.

For instance, let's say it was in the divine plan for someone to have a child. Their child was to be married to someone. They were to be married, etc. etc.

Let's say someone kills that first person. The person who was to marry their child will obviously not do so, and the whole plan gets balled up. How about the kid they were supposed to have or that their kid was supposed to have? Does that kid still get created by someone ELSE being with the other parent? How about that person's divine plan? It's all fucked up now. They weren't supposed to be with the first person.

Or how about if someone WASN'T supposed to have a child and did? Then you have a person who was never supposed to exist interacting with people and fucking everything all up.

A divine plan would work with the ILLUSION of free will, but not with the reality of it.

So, discuss.

[name]

I think you're using the term "divine plan" incorrectly. What you're talking about above is "predestination," right? In other words, the idea that each of us already have our destiny determined. So in that case, yeah, free will would be pointless since it's already been laid out in the stars, so to speak.

I think of a divine plan as being God's general framework for mankind. We then make choices, exert our "free will," and then our choices will eventually impact us after we die based on the "divine plan."

Not sure if I'm making sense, but that's what I've got.

[Matt]

To quote myself:

The question really is if the divine plan must take place or if we as people can go against the divine plan because of our free will. Just because you have a plan does not mean that you always follow it completely. If you don't follow it completely that doesn't mean that you can't get yourself back into the position to follow the plan.

For example:
Let's say you're a rock climber. While you're on the ground you plan a course for you to follow that will ultimately lead you to the top of the rock face. You start to climb the wall following it the way in which you intended to on the bottom. Everything is going good and going according to plan. However, you reach one spot where the plan becomes very difficult. You didn't realize that this part of the rock face actually curved back outwards. If you followed the original plan you would be climbing in such a way that you would be hanging and this is very difficult to do and requires a lot of strength. However, when you look over to your right, you notice holds and grips that you did not see from the bottom and it looks much easier. So, instead of following the original plan, you go over to the right and climb up that way. You are not on the path that you intended to be on, but the path you planned on taking is in view. So, you work your way back over while still climbing up so that you can finish the wall climb with the original path that you planned. That time that you were not on the path did not change the path at all, but you were able to get back on the path further up the climb. It wasn't the complete "pure" path that you had looked at from the bottom of the wall, but you still got back on and made it to the top.

Another thing that should be pointed out is that God would be omniscient, meaning that he would know everywhere we would go away from the plan. I think the main question that should be asked is if omniscience works with free will, because I don't believe it does.

[House At Intellectual Loner Ave]

Well (as you'll notice I like to being lots of things like that) you can see as one of two ways.

@) Say there is a Divine Plan, wouldn't it the individuals choice whether or not to follow it? And if it were truly a Divine thing then wouldn't it allow room for Free Will? So then couldn't the Divine Plan be just one possible path any one individual could take?

%) Something someone at school once brought up regarding true Free Will, in regards to people, is that everything we do is the result (direct or otherwise) of a learned habit or inherited trait. We have certain habits that will ultimately have a say in where we go, what we do, are preferences, etc. You could argue that it's because you wanted to do those things but you have to remember that you don't just wake up with the urge to do something without any reason. Everything has a reason and cause to it, whether you're aware of it or not. So wouldn't that rule out the possiblity of Free Will?

[Kara Parker]

I believe in fate when it comes to situations such as love because that is something you don't totally have control over;however,things that you have control over and have to make choices about affect your future. in different ways depending on your decisions.

[Andrew J Litzenberg]

Heisenberg's electron uncertainty principle disagrees with you.

[Rem]

Only if you're radioactive.

[Rem]

What's, "free will," supposed to mean, anyways? If it means that it's literally impossible to determine what actions someone is going to do (Even with omnipotence and/or some kind of reality simulating supercomputer), then it sounds pretty scary--at any moment, someone could come to the conclusion that they want to kill you, seeing as how free will would imply that thoughts are not predetermined by past experience or the lifetime of conditioning meant to give people personality and prevent criminal acts. Luckily, this doesn't appear to be the case. If it's just minor things (What color socks you choose to wear, I don't know) then it probably doesn't even exist in the first place.

If it's, "Nobody knows what I'm going to think or do, even though it's possible," then it's mostly a matter of whether or not any omnipotent beings actually change things in this world. If they stay out of it, then it fulfills the requirements of free will as far as we're concerned. If it doesn't, then yeah, no free will.