Well son of a bitch.
Recreating post: I believe that homosexuality is damaging to people spiritually, just as my uncle's drinking is damaging to him. You may disagree with me, but it can't be empirically studied. Either way, I still love those people, even if I believe that their actions are destructive.
It's more spiritually/emotionally damaging to be told that your love is a sin. It can also be more physically damaging to be told that if it drives someone to suicide or if other kids hear that its a sin and start bullying the gay kid. I mean lets face it, if you're 18 and under when you realize you're gay you're dealing with a pretty intellectually devoid crowd who has no understanding of compassion and empathy. Plenty of them will hear that and kick your ass. Not to mention, I agree with the statement that just by saying it's a sin you're lending credibility to the gay haters. If it's ok to say it's a sin then suddenly it becomes a hell of a lot harder to explain to people that to hate them is wrong. People think it's acceptable to hate a specific person who consistently commits other sins (liars, thieves, and murderers), so why shouldn't they hate gays? They'll never understand that even if it is a sin and it is spiritually damaging that it's unacceptable to hate them.
Personally I believe the moral thing to do in this situation is to let go of your morals in order to help others. It's like how the Pope used to (and I think he still does to an extent) think that condoms were immoral, this may have been true but it lead to a lot of people having unprotected sex and getting diseases and dying. In that situation you have to weigh it out, is it better to change your opinion despite the fact that you believe you're in the right, or is it better to continue to say condoms are immoral despite the deaths that saying so will cause because thats what you believe.
Whats worse, the damage caused by someone having gay sex or the damage caused by someone being hated for their sexuality?
Saying that it's more spiritually damaging is speculation; you can't know that. As far as the hate of others, I can't control that, and I don't think you're giving people enough credit. There was a 14 year old girl in my neighborhood that was ran over and killed by another girl her age. Was what the driving girl did wrong? Yes. Could she have been hated by her peers because of it? Yes. But it was taught by parents in such a way that the girl was not harassed, but comforted. Calling it a sin does not give liberties to people. Those people were just looking for a reason to justify their hate. There should never be hate among Christians, even for the theives and murderers and whomever else.
My believing that what they do is a sin, does not give anyone liberty to hurt them. Because I believe that it mocks what is so very sacred, I cannot stand idly by without giving my opinion. That's what would be morally wrong of me. Believing that what they are doing is self destructive, but not saying anything because I might hurt their feelings, is what is wrong.
Your ending remark is comparing apples to oranges. Believing that what they do is a sin is not why people hurt them. They hurt them because they want to hurt them, sexuality is just an excuse. The damage caused by them having sex is eternal. Pretend for a moment that the previous statement is true, wouldn't that be a pretty big deal?
Abreo, I'm past trying to debate with you on this, and ask that you trust that my actions (I can't speak for every other Christian) are out of love. Because of my beliefs, I will not hurt homosexuals, but I cannot watch what they do without making some sort of stand.
I know not everyone is an asshole, but it only takes a couple of them to mess up your existence yeah? I don't know if sexuality is just an excuse for hate or if it deals with what they were taught but I do believe you're giving them that excuse whether you mean to or not. I agree though, it's very not Christian of them to hate. I also hope you can appreciate the fact then that I can't idly stand by when I believe you're causing them more damage than just being gay ever could.
I know you're acting out of love but that doesn't mean I agree with your actions. Whether or not it's spiritually damaging or will be harmful to them in the after life is all speculation on our part, however whats not speculation is the self hate that I know they can experience so I act on what I know instead of what I do not know. I know it sucks for them in this life to be told their love is a sin (and for hate to be spewed at them by a special few) and for all I know this is the only life we get and there is no afterlife.
Abreo is right.
Making up excuse like caring for your non-existing soul, based on the teaching of a non-existing god is not an excuse to create a hostile environment for teen gays, teen lesbians, teen trans to grow up with.
Studies show teen gays have 3 times more likely to kill themselves because there are too many jerks like Vertigo-one and Paulsifer telling them that being gays are wrong.
The fact is, both Vertigo one and Paulsifer is wrong in their perception of homosexuality. The teaching or preaching against homosexuality actually kill real people in real life.
So, fuck the christian god who hate gays. Just stop saying gays are wrong or sinful. If there is a religion that could not tolerate loving gay people, then this religion is wrong.
The fucking Catholic Pope is still against condom use in AIDS infected area between heterosexual couples. Fuck the Pope, he personally caused thousands of lives loss being he is so hang up on condoms.
Oh, I forgot.
Fuck Joseph Smith, the fucking con man, child rapist, shit of all shit Mormon.
Being gay is not a crime. Being hatred filled mormon would lead to hate crime.
I do completely respect that you need to get your word out there too. I respect your right to stand up for the dictates of your own conscience, just like you respect mine. I understand where you're coming from, it's hard to distinguish causation, and if I thought a belief was causing hate, I'd probably jump in the same way you are.
As far as I can tell, you're the only one filled with hate here. I would address what you said about the Pope or Joseph Smith, but it seems like your mind is made up and isn't worth my time.
All the people saying "I have nothing against gay people but I think the lifestyle they choose is sinful" seem to be confused as to why the rest of us are offended by this, after all you're being perfectly polite.
Well, imagine that someone said to you "You know, your parents are really nice and everything but I think that it's morally wrong for them to be in a relationship" When you tried to find out why, they say "It's just my opinion based on my religion", you would probably be annoyed by this.
Yes, but now look at it from God's perspective. He gives people sex, a perfect wonderful thing, and then people twist it and do things with it that are wrong. This isn't the same as saying "its not natural". It's saying "It is not how God wants us to be". If God is the one with all the knowledge and made us pure originally and then we messed it up, he knows what is and is not how he intended us to be and what is best for us.
Now to actually address some of your points (I'll admit I haven't read the whole thread), what are you basing your view of homosexuality as a sin on? The Bible? I think we can all agree that the Bible is a contradictory text
I've still yet to see a legitimate example of this. A scirbal error here and there on matters of geneology, but most of these are cleared up with more contempoary documents.
I have previously seen Vertigo_One state that the New Testament rescinded many of the Old Testament Rules but kept the 'moral ones' (apologies for not actually being able to quote exactly, Vertigo_One is a prolific debater and it would have taken quite some time to locate the right message) I have never heard this argument elsewhere and can't really comment on it
The best way to look at it is that if it comes in both new and old testements, and if Jesus talks about it. Jesus refers in his preaching to condem sexual immorality, which is a refernce to, amoungst other things, homosexuality.
This is a very good overview of the subject.
1. Even taking it from a normal perspective, I consider your first paragraph wrong. God has no right to complain about what we choose to do with our free will if it isn't hurting anybody. Nobody suffers from consensual gay sex--hence, God does not have the right to complain. Tell me, what does God want from us?
2. All the prophecies that Jesus fullfills that do not, in fact, relate to the Messiah. Explain those away.
3. How do you know he was talking about homosexuality? Sexual immorality was /much/ different in Roman society than what you're picturing it as.
Even taking it from a normal perspective, I consider your first paragraph wrong. God has no right to complain about what we choose to do with our free will if it isn't hurting anybody. Nobody suffers from consensual gay sex--hence, God does not have the right to complain. Tell me, what does God want from us?
If it is moving us away from the perfect way we were meant to exist in, we are suffering. God has perfect plans for us.
All the prophecies that Jesus fullfills that do not, in fact, relate to the Messiah. Explain those away.
How do you know he was talking about homosexuality? Sexual immorality was /much/ different in Roman society than what you're picturing it as.
Because he's not a member of Roman society, and he's not talking from a roman perspective. He was refering to the OT, which makes a very clear list of what sexual immoraltiy consists of.