Is Being Gay a Choice?

[E_Lewis]

You already know what most people will say.

Far right: Yes. It is a difficult choice, but can be overcome. There are bad things to being gay, but some people live with it the way geeks live with ridicule because of their strangeness that they could change.

 

Far left: No. You can't choose who you fall in love with. You're just born that way. Why would someone choose to be teased, rejected and alienated by society and their loved ones?

 

Well, to be fair to the right, some people, like geeks or weirdos, don't care about being teased or bullied or rejected because of the things they like. Even straight couples are willing to be teased or rejected because of their choice of a partner, but it's for love, right? Then again, is there really such a thing as true love at all?

Maybe it's just physical. Let's be honest, being gay or straight depends mostly on sex. If you fall in love with someone online then find out their not th gender you like, you probably wouldn't want to be with them the same way you did before.

For all we know, we do choose who we fall in love with. We make decisions about how to interperet our feelings, how to react to a person's actions or thoughts, when judging something they do or believe in, those are all little choices. Bu are they really what make us fall in love with people?

 

But it's true, if you want to love someone, why make it someone you're family or friends would reject you for? Why pick someone you can't have kids with or marry?(If that's what you want)

 

In Chrsitianity, the Bible says at least three times that being gay is wrong. But the only reason it would be wrong is if it's a choice, because sin is about disobeying God's will and rejecting the truth of his law and words. You can really only go against God's law by choosing to reject or go against it, like choosing to steal or choosing to ignore Jesus once you've heard the truth, or choosing not to even try to be a better person. So how can something be a sin if you don't choose to do it? (please no religious bashing from any sides in this discussion) Many christians who don't support being gay say that it's a hard thing to overcome but can be done, but how many gay people do they know that have actually stayed celibate or gone straight?

 

Main questions wiht this issue: Is it a choice? Can you choose who you fall in love with? Why or why not?  If it is a choice, why would you choose to be gay at all?

EDIT: If you have anything directed specifically at me, the one posting this, I'm not going to read it. The discussion is mainly for other people who wanted to discuss it, and I lost track of the comments months ago anyway.

[Vertigo_One [Ops Mod]]

If you really want an example, look at "Thou shalt not kill". Does this include abortion? Many people will say yes, many people will say no. But unless it clearly states in the Bible "Thou shalt not abort thy foetus", it's down to how the text speaks to each person, how they interpret it.

I think the text is pretty clear. It says, out an out "Thou shall not murder". Therefore, the next question is "Is the fetus alive" and "Is it human". It fulfills all the nessecary bio-medical understandings of life (MRS GREN), it is an organism rather than a tissue etc and it has homosapien DNA. The dispute is not about what the Bible says, everyone is pretty clear the Bible says abortion is wrong. The dispute is over whether or not that fact then means we can put it into law.

For example, there are many cults of Christianity in the U.S., which verbally attack and bully gay people. There's nothing against that in the Bible. Some may say it's going against Jesus' teachings, "Love one another" etc. The cults may say it's spreading the word of the Lord, which is encouraged by Christian doctrine.

Actually, there is a rather large body of the Christian doctrine which is fundamentally against that. Mainly "let he who is without sin cast the first stone", "take the plank out of your eye..." etc. I really don't think you can claim this is a legitimate interpretation.

My main concern is, if your morals depend entirely on what a book says, how do you ever think for yourself? How do so many of us manage to be good people without the Bible, or other holy books?

Because everyone is made in God's image, whether you believe in the Bible or not. That means we all know good from bad to an extent. The distinction is how much do we actually listen to it. The reason I would argue that I think for myself is in seeking God.

[hopelesscynic]

Actually, there is a rather large body of the Christian doctrine which is fundamentally against that. Mainly "let he who is without sin cast the first stone", "take the plank out of your eye..." etc. I really don't think you can claim this is a legitimate interpretation.

Legitimacy is a personal opinion. Your opinion is as above. Mine is something else/sometimes similar. And Christian extremists have their own "legitimate" interpretations, which they can back up with Bible quotes, and you can fight against them with your Bible quotes, and I and the rest of us can sit there all bemused as to why grown ups are throwing quotes at each others' heads, as they believe that the Bible is the word of the Lord and thus "always right". And yeah, I can see why you'd believe that, I'm actually not against Christianity or religion as a "thing" to believe in. I think it's great, I really do (honest). What my personal (and this is just ME) query is: how is someone's opinion, backed up with Bible quotes and all, more relevant than mine, backed up with personal experience/science/or what I claim to be common sense? And I'll answer that; I don't think it is. From a Christian's point of view, yeah, you win, here's the trophy. *imaginary trophy*. But this is a debate as to whether being gay is a choice. And if I say "no", and you or someone else says "yeah, here's the Bible quote to prove it", you're just arguing that IN THE BIBLE it's wrong/whatever.

Because everyone is made in God's image, whether you believe in the Bible or not. That means we all know good from bad to an extent. The distinction is how much do we actually listen to it. The reason I would argue that I think for myself is in seeking God.

• Ah, I object. If I don't believe in the Bible, then in my personal universe, I am not made in God's image. I am made in my own image. Or maybe I'm not made in an image at all, I was just born and things just happened. And yes I agree, as humans we DO have free will and a conscience, whether it's bestowed upon us by God or by evolution (i'm not trying to be controversial by throwing in evolution, I'm just referring to a differing theory). And yes, seeking God is a perfectly legitimate way of seeking virtue and morality, and it's fool-proof; it's worked for centuries, religion has truly saved the world from an anarchist mess of murder and immorality. But there are others out there (not just me), who, without the help of religion, have managed to be truly good people, people I admire for doing the right thing without being told to by a book or anything. Maybe you're right, maybe, even atheists, are made in God's own image and only thus have the capacity to choose good over evil. In contrast, I would say personally that I talk to people, see their side of what they believe, and then look at its effects. I use my (admittedly limited) life experience, and learn quite fundamental lessons through making mistakes, which I guess I could have learned to start with from a holy book. I am quite cynical, I suppose, and want to learn by myself, and form my own opinions regardless of what religion teaches... woah, we're way off topic! But it was a nice discussion anyway :)

[Vertigo_One [Ops Mod]]

Indeed, an interesting discussion. The only reason I bring up the Bible at all is because people say "Homosexuality can't be a sin, you're born that way" and I respond by saying "But the Bible says nothing about orientation, what is says is about the act".

[David N]

I think the text is pretty clear. It says, out an out "Thou shall not murder". Therefore, the next question is "Is the fetus alive" and "Is it human".

But here already, you begin to make assumptions/inferences. You are defining murder as the willful killing of a human being, and arguing from that standpoint. To me, this is not made clear by the statement "Thou shall not murder," and that can actually be interpreted in many ways.

[Vertigo_One [Ops Mod]]

What assumptions? Murder is defined as being the deliberate killing of another human being in cold blood (IE not war etc). To kill something, it must first be alive, and for it to be murder, it must be human.

[Fake Crowley]

...Ok. In that case, why is murder wrong?

 

I'm not saying it isn't, as I personally believe that murder is wrong--merely asking you what evil comes out of murder. For me, it's  something sentient dying. For you, it seems to be a complete human body, regardless of sentience or intellectual ability, dying.

[Vertigo_One [Ops Mod]]

Golden rule. Do unto others as you would have done unto you. That's the first part of it. If I was a foetus, I wouldn't want to be aborted, I wouldn't want anyone to have that right, and though you might say "I didn't say I wanted to live" the truth is we have to err on the side of caution.

[Fake Crowley]

Fetuses have desire?

[Vertigo_One [Ops Mod]]

Desire to survive.

[Vertigo_One [Ops Mod]]

Following your logic, we could say that animals are suicidal. You don't need higher brain functions to want to live. All organisms are programed to preserve their own survival, at the most basic level.

[Fake Crowley]

...So you're a vegetarian, then?

[David N]

@Vertigo_One

Following your logic, we could say that animals are suicidal. You don't need higher brain functions to want to live.

No, you could not deduce that at all. It is not a function of brain functions, but brain development. All fetuses are under-developed by definition. The point being made is that human fetuses, at most points of their development, as with animal embryos/fetuses, are not developed enough to possess "desire" of any sort, though their bodies may continue to work to ensure their survival. I think Thoronir made a very valid point you disregarded.

All organisms are programed to preserve their own survival, at the most basic level.

However, this does not equate to the "desire" you were expressing.