Nerdfighters

You already know what most people will say.

Far right: Yes. It is a difficult choice, but can be overcome. There are bad things to being gay, but some people live with it the way geeks live with ridicule because of their strangeness that they could change.

 

Far left: No. You can't choose who you fall in love with. You're just born that way. Why would someone choose to be teased, rejected and alienated by society and their loved ones?

 

Well, to be fair to the right, some people, like geeks or weirdos, don't care about being teased or bullied or rejected because of the things they like. Even straight couples are willing to be teased or rejected because of their choice of a partner, but it's for love, right? Then again, is there really such a thing as true love at all?

Maybe it's just physical. Let's be honest, being gay or straight depends mostly on sex. If you fall in love with someone online then find out their not th gender you like, you probably wouldn't want to be with them the same way you did before.

For all we know, we do choose who we fall in love with. We make decisions about how to interperet our feelings, how to react to a person's actions or thoughts, when judging something they do or believe in, those are all little choices. Bu are they really what make us fall in love with people?

 

But it's true, if you want to love someone, why make it someone you're family or friends would reject you for? Why pick someone you can't have kids with or marry?(If that's what you want)

 

In Chrsitianity, the Bible says at least three times that being gay is wrong. But the only reason it would be wrong is if it's a choice, because sin is about disobeying God's will and rejecting the truth of his law and words. You can really only go against God's law by choosing to reject or go against it, like choosing to steal or choosing to ignore Jesus once you've heard the truth, or choosing not to even try to be a better person. So how can something be a sin if you don't choose to do it? (please no religious bashing from any sides in this discussion) Many christians who don't support being gay say that it's a hard thing to overcome but can be done, but how many gay people do they know that have actually stayed celibate or gone straight?

 

Main questions wiht this issue: Is it a choice? Can you choose who you fall in love with? Why or why not?  If it is a choice, why would you choose to be gay at all?

EDIT: If you have anything directed specifically at me, the one posting this, I'm not going to read it. The discussion is mainly for other people who wanted to discuss it, and I lost track of the comments months ago anyway.

Tags: choice, christianity, debate, gay, opinion

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exactly, whether or not it's a choice is irrelevant.  people are people and that's what it boils down to. the objective standard for moral conduct (if we're going to continue going down that rabbit hole) seems to me to be "does it cause harm?" anyway....so whether it's a choice or not, let's ask, does it cause harm?

on the sum of it all, homophobia causes harm. we can agree with that. it's bullying. that causes harm. so homophobia is immoral.  now, as for homosexuality. well, does it cause harm?  no more than heterosexuality, or bisexuality, possibly less when considering contemporary issues of overpopulation and the procreation factor.  so whether or not homosexuality is a choice, or moral, it certainly isn't immoral.

so we can argue that no sexuality (between consenting adults) is immoral in absolute terms.  but we might argue that if population levels are part of the equation, then the moral good of a sexuality is relative.  so we might say that if the human species was about to go extinct and really needed to make lots of babies to prevent it, then heterosexual acts would be more likely to increase procreation and therefore, reduce extinction, and in that situation, be a moral good.  this may have even been behind some of the reasoning of ancient religions; the peoples lived in remote communities under threat of nature and neighbouring empires.  but not the case now. we've got 7 billion + and counting, and the climate is going all over the shop, food supplies are messed up and we're out of room. so having babies is now have the opposite effect, and heterosexuality is not a moral good, and homosexuality may provide that moral good instead.

I would identify as gay, but I don't entirely know if it's a choice or not. It certainly never felt like a choice but I really don't think it matters. If it's a choice then it's a perfectly valid one which deserves the same respect and rights as any other choice, if it's not then it still deserves the same respect and rights as any other genetic-environmental quirk. 

As for the religious perspective, the bible does say it's wrong to commit the act, so if one places value in the word of the bible I imagine it becomes more difficult. Choosing to believe in the bible though, is a personal decision and one which one does not have the right to enforce on other people. Generally i think Governments should be completely religiously neutral and in circumstance like this come back to the principle rule behind any law: "Does it hurt anyone else?" If it does then by all means ban gay marriage, but as far as I can see there is still no argument for banning it. 

Well I went off topic there. In summary; I don't know whether it's a choice and I don't see why it matters.

Of course being gay's not a choice, you don't get to pick who (or in some case's what) you're attracted to it just sort of happens.

I have, in my own experience, never met anyone who had chosen to be gay. Anybody in the LGBQ community that I've ever spoken with has wholeheartedly denied there ever being a choice, and me personally. I know I didn't choose my orientation, I just was.

You are who you are, the only choice is whether or not you will let yourself be yourself. The choice isn't whether you are gay or not, it is whether or not you choose to behave in a "gay" manner; i.e. open and honest about your sexual preference. Nobody chooses their sexual preference; it's not like choosing a hair colour and you can just change it. It's like a birthmark, it's a part of you. There's nothing wrong with it, it's who you are. I can't stress that idea enough.  

I think that the systems (biological, psychological, social, cultural) that go into determining where we fall on the sex/gender/sexual preference spectra are so complex that calling these identities either a 'choice' or a predetermined biological fact verges on absurdity. I also think that with all the sources of world suck on the planet, focusing on whether or not queer folks are sinners is myopic and out of whack. The real question ought to be, all religious and/or gender & sexuality matters aside, are we doing the right thing for our fellow beings and ourselves? If so, are we doing it well / enough? If not, why not, and how can we start? Being queer or straight, cis or trans doesn't stop me or anyone I know from being kind, charitable, hospitable, and generally awesome, so why dither about it?

No, being gay is not a choice. It's in your genes.

Proof?

Whatever gene it is, It's a recessive gene.  Twins are more likely to be gay if they have a gay sibling. LBQ persons often have a grandparent (in the closet) or great-aunt or uncle, and/or aunt uncle or cousin who is also LBQ.  It seems to skip and hop, like blue eyes in brown eyed families.

Also, even considering the possibility of uterine hormone influences rather than genes, the person is still born that way.  And even considering post natal environment,  the environment interacts with the genes and hormones.

So it's a natural biological state;  inherited from 'straight parents'.

There is also an evolutionary advantage to having non-heterosexual relatives, noted in more than one social species.  The non-heterosexual relative has time to acquire resources for the family unit that the parents do not.  That is to say, having a gay aunt or uncle means your mum or dad can spend more time nursing you and so on while that relative gets food and so on, and the material welfare of the family expands. This provides an advantage that families where all members produce offspring do not have.  This adaptation may have occurred in social species quite some time ago, long before humans became humans; it would account for why it's not just a human trait.  It also leads to the idea that being gay is a recessive gene;  or involves a gene not specifically coded for sexuality but is recessive in how it is expressed (for example, intergenerational hormone changes).

Not sure if these things have been covered but at present anthropological performance theory suggests that gender is  performative, that cultural ideals and expectations define our gender or the expression of that gender and yet at the same time our expression or performance of gender defines and creates those cultural ideals, expectations and stigmas...so its a cycle and we redefine our ideologies of what it means to be gay or straight or bisexual or anything in between with each turn. An important distinction must be made between that of sex and of gender. Gender is the cultural characterisitcs decided by a certain society in order to classify the feminine and the masculine into disticntly separate and opposing yet inextricably linked categories. Sex is merely biological categorization. Because of this gender can be observed to vary over space and time. In some societies it can be seen that the 'men' have characteristics thought largely by the western world as feminine. At one time in history androgyny was seen as god-like. In some societies heterosexuality could be seen as a choice and not a birth right as men from a young age in a tribe in PNG (The Etoro, or Edolo) partake in homosexual behaviour only to settle later on in heterosexual relationships untraumatized due to it being expected normal behaviour in the social context. So doing homosexual acts doesn't make you gay just as much as doing heterosexual acts doesn't make you straight so why does it matter so much whether its a choice or not. Its not the flu you can't catch it. Even if it is a choice much like religion should people be stigmatized just because they chose the road 'less traveled by.' People have to stop looking at gender and sexuality with our western world's rigid classifications. Firstly there could exist different types of gay people some that become gay later in life due to experiences had or born at birth due to biological or hereditary circumstances or homosexuality could be a mixture of both nature and nurture. There is no definate answer but why should gay people have to excuse and argue over a simple matter of equality, a golden rule exalted in every religion and philosophy... to treat other people like you'd like to be treated.

^ win

The following is a very nice outline to the Christian perspective on homosexuality. I'd encourage you all to read this if you want to understand.

http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/trevinwax/2011/10/18/how-i-wish...

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