Nerdfighters

You already know what most people will say.

Far right: Yes. It is a difficult choice, but can be overcome. There are bad things to being gay, but some people live with it the way geeks live with ridicule because of their strangeness that they could change.

 

Far left: No. You can't choose who you fall in love with. You're just born that way. Why would someone choose to be teased, rejected and alienated by society and their loved ones?

 

Well, to be fair to the right, some people, like geeks or weirdos, don't care about being teased or bullied or rejected because of the things they like. Even straight couples are willing to be teased or rejected because of their choice of a partner, but it's for love, right? Then again, is there really such a thing as true love at all?

Maybe it's just physical. Let's be honest, being gay or straight depends mostly on sex. If you fall in love with someone online then find out their not th gender you like, you probably wouldn't want to be with them the same way you did before.

For all we know, we do choose who we fall in love with. We make decisions about how to interperet our feelings, how to react to a person's actions or thoughts, when judging something they do or believe in, those are all little choices. Bu are they really what make us fall in love with people?

 

But it's true, if you want to love someone, why make it someone you're family or friends would reject you for? Why pick someone you can't have kids with or marry?(If that's what you want)

 

In Chrsitianity, the Bible says at least three times that being gay is wrong. But the only reason it would be wrong is if it's a choice, because sin is about disobeying God's will and rejecting the truth of his law and words. You can really only go against God's law by choosing to reject or go against it, like choosing to steal or choosing to ignore Jesus once you've heard the truth, or choosing not to even try to be a better person. So how can something be a sin if you don't choose to do it? (please no religious bashing from any sides in this discussion) Many christians who don't support being gay say that it's a hard thing to overcome but can be done, but how many gay people do they know that have actually stayed celibate or gone straight?

 

Main questions wiht this issue: Is it a choice? Can you choose who you fall in love with? Why or why not?  If it is a choice, why would you choose to be gay at all?

EDIT: If you have anything directed specifically at me, the one posting this, I'm not going to read it. The discussion is mainly for other people who wanted to discuss it, and I lost track of the comments months ago anyway.

Tags: choice, christianity, debate, gay, opinion

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I'm mostly just saying that what you call, "Unconscious choices," aren't as simple as, "Throw enough doctors at it and you can do whatever you want."


At what point did I say it was simple. Where did I make that suggestion?

We're going to have to agree to disagree here. If you care about someone and have a close relationship with them, denying that aspect of yourself is something we as humans can't do.


Reverse engineer that statement and think a little more about it. The only reason that you have that close relationship with someone is because you choose to develop it. Love and relationships are all about choice. When you say that to most people, they make stupid comebacks like "you can't choose who you love, man!" implying that when I say its a choice, I'm also implying it's simple. Don't infer what isn't there. If relationships are not founded on choice, they are not meaningful. If I had no option but to do something nice for someone, that's not really doing it is it. It was just a natural consequence of something. No more meaningfull than the ball at the end of a newtons' cradle swinging up. Relationships and love are based fundimentally on choice. That is true of all relationships. If they're not, then they are just mechanical outputs, that have no real meaning.

I'm mostly saying that I agree with you, changing your sexuality is possible. It serves no purpose, however.

Then you're making a different argument. Sexuality, is a choice.

Ok, so you're not using it correctly. Reductio ad Absurdum isn't a logical fallacy. You're making a malapropism. "Reductio ad Absurdum," arguments are strong and valid (When correctly used, of course.) I think you mean Straw man.

 

Reducto ad absurdum can be used correctly, but when you bring it up as a falacy, one implies that it is done so because it has been used incorrectly. The same way that people would call slipery slopes a falacy, only when used incorrectly, where as in fact history can provide us with all kinds of examples of real slipery slopes.

We don't understand the human brain, and ultimately all a handful of people deciding that they changed their sexuality is that a handful of people decided that they changed their sexuality. Until you can figure out how sexuality is decided and what laws govern it, you have no idea how to change it.

 


Please show me where I said I knew how to change sexuality. I didn't. You keep putting words in my mouth. All I said was that it involves subconsious choices, I didn't say that this was a simple matter, or that it was something I understood in depth. However, a fairly simple analysis demonstrates that it's not a consious choice, since simply willing it to happen consiously will not make it happen. Therefore, there are more subtle elements at work, but the fact that some people have changed proves that it is possible.

While I agree that, "Nobody chooses to be gay," isn't a particularly pertinent argument for equality, you're still saying some weird things. Not every unconscious choice can be overruled by the conscious mind. If they could, therapy could be a lot easier, and humans would be a lot different. Some personality traits might be malleable with the right actions, but you can't just decide to give yourself a verbal tic or remove a psychosis through wishful thinking.

but you can't just decide to give yourself a verbal tic or remove a psychosis through wishful thinking.


And where did I say that all it took was wishful thinking? I said a choice could be made. I didn't say it was instantaneous or simple.

Arn't you kind of removing people's agency. Yes, people are subjected to environmental impacts beyond their ability to control, but they can also change their enviroment and their response to it.

And you can also respond to your enviroment, change it, and change your attraction. There are too many testemonies of people who have to ignore it

I think that, in the words of the Hank Green, human sexuality is complicated. It's not L or B or G or T or Q, it's more of a spectrum, and that means that it's not so much about what you choose as who you are. I'm attracted pretty exclusively to men, and it is entirely possible that there's some mystical determining personality trait that's responsible for that, but I know that it feels true and correct and that that's all that really matters. 

I suppose I could, if I so chose, wean myself off of loving men. It's possible. But to do so would be to kill who I am for the satisfaction of people who have no business telling me who I should be, and I would never choose to do something so unfair to myself. 

In the end, it's entirely irrelevant if sexuality is a choice or not. Who you are determines who you are, and if who you are decides that you are most definitely a woman inside of a man's body, there's not a damn person out there who can tell you you're wrong because they aren't you.

As someone who is queer id like to point out how far from black and white these things are.

I fell in love with a girl online and found out they were trans and  honestly had no problems with it. Even though i only like females physically this made no difference because the importance is in the emotional connection. 

Who you are attracted to is not a choice, you have chemicals in your brain that release things and give you the hevvie jeevies and suddenly you're infatuated with someone and you want your tongue in their face more than anything. That is not your choice.

Who you fall in love with works similarly. You like the vlogbrothers? i like the vlogbrothers? you like vonnegut? i love vonnegut? and then nerdfighter like and then dates and back to the tongue in the face and you know how this all works. 

However to an extent acting on these feelings is always your choice. Who you date and who you have sex with is always under your control. I however feel it'd be unreasonable to tell anyone they need to be forever alone because genitalia!

"Why would you choose to be gay"

Exactly. No one would choose the stigma attached, the fact it makes it 10 times harder to find a partner, or find media related to your community. The risk of being kicked out by your family and picked on through most of your education.

Who you are attracted to is not a choice, you have chemicals in your brain that release things and give you the hevvie jeevies and suddenly you're infatuated with someone and you want your tongue in their face more than anything. That is not your choice.


That's lust though, not love. Infatuation isn't at all the same thing as love, and it can be controlled.

i went on to explain that love works similarly. it starts with chemicals and then emotions which are from more chemicals and none of that is in your control. so you feelings arent your actions are.

but its' human nature to not be alone, so even your actions are justifiable and understandable.  

True, you can disconnect from that person. But there are people I've kept myself from for years and would still have feelings for.

Plus I have only been in love with people who identify as woman and i highly doubt that's coincidence. So why should i assume that it's coincidence for a gay man to only fall in love with men? Because it obviously only happened once.

I can go "I can't be in love with this person" and keep myself from them and cut them off from my life and heal. But that will not make me ever go on to love someone of the same gender. You would continue to cut yourself off from people you fall in love with and then fall in love again with someone you consider unright and go on forever like that. Eventually you settle with someone you don't love and eventually don't even like and that's awful. 

We can stop loving a person but we cannot force ourselves stop feeling love of any kind all together and keep our humanity. 

I love a lot of people. My parents, my sister, my dog, a few close friends of both genders, and so on and so forth. I'm not romantically interested in any of them. Sexuality is guided by lust. The most fulfilling marital relationship incorporates both of those attractions--mutual physical and emotional love. Homosexuality is basically a failure on our biology's part to continue the species--the desire for reproduction, but in a non-productive way. It could be compared to preferring low calorie food over high calorie food--a behavior that conflicts with the years of programming and conditioning that evolution, or at least the force that encourages the survival of the species, has created.

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