You already know what most people will say.
Far right: Yes. It is a difficult choice, but can be overcome. There are bad things to being gay, but some people live with it the way geeks live with ridicule because of their strangeness that they could change.
Far left: No. You can't choose who you fall in love with. You're just born that way. Why would someone choose to be teased, rejected and alienated by society and their loved ones?
Well, to be fair to the right, some people, like geeks or weirdos, don't care about being teased or bullied or rejected because of the things they like. Even straight couples are willing to be teased or rejected because of their choice of a partner, but it's for love, right? Then again, is there really such a thing as true love at all?
Maybe it's just physical. Let's be honest, being gay or straight depends mostly on sex. If you fall in love with someone online then find out their not th gender you like, you probably wouldn't want to be with them the same way you did before.
For all we know, we do choose who we fall in love with. We make decisions about how to interperet our feelings, how to react to a person's actions or thoughts, when judging something they do or believe in, those are all little choices. Bu are they really what make us fall in love with people?
But it's true, if you want to love someone, why make it someone you're family or friends would reject you for? Why pick someone you can't have kids with or marry?(If that's what you want)
In Chrsitianity, the Bible says at least three times that being gay is wrong. But the only reason it would be wrong is if it's a choice, because sin is about disobeying God's will and rejecting the truth of his law and words. You can really only go against God's law by choosing to reject or go against it, like choosing to steal or choosing to ignore Jesus once you've heard the truth, or choosing not to even try to be a better person. So how can something be a sin if you don't choose to do it? (please no religious bashing from any sides in this discussion) Many christians who don't support being gay say that it's a hard thing to overcome but can be done, but how many gay people do they know that have actually stayed celibate or gone straight?
Main questions wiht this issue: Is it a choice? Can you choose who you fall in love with? Why or why not? If it is a choice, why would you choose to be gay at all?
EDIT: If you have anything directed specifically at me, the one posting this, I'm not going to read it. The discussion is mainly for other people who wanted to discuss it, and I lost track of the comments months ago anyway.
There is nothing intrinsic about an abnormality that makes it impossible to overcome.
You can overcome your genetic imprinting? I would say that's impossible but your welcome if you can prove me wrong on that.
As a girl who has grown up in a very catholic home I would like to say that the people who are extreme about people being gay are probably also the people who have signs on their house that read "all trespassers will be shot" I understand and am not really surprised or upset by the people i know or find out are gay if that is the way the choose to live then i don't give two craps. Although i believe in god and am a devout catholic I still have many gay and bisexual friends who i am very close to. Also to all of the people who bash my religion i would like you to know that you are making a HUGE generalization. The only problem that the catholic church has ever had will gay people is that they want to use the word marriage for the ceremony that brings them together. Marriage is a holy bond with god between a man and a woman.The only problem is the one single word and the fact that it means something very specific to us. If you want to have a civil ceremony go on ahead but don't call it something that it is not.
Also to those who hate on Catholics - you know nothing about the people or community that you are saying many insults about go to a Catholic mass sometime and talk to some of the people. They are just like you! You have painted a picture of us in which we all quote the bible and are very far right. That we all pass judgement on everyone we see. I assure you if you ever actually talked to an ordinary catholic person you would realize that we are the same we all want the same things in life. This is nerdfightaria a place where everyone is to be accepted even when those around us haven't or wont try to keep it that way.
Also to those who hate on Catholics - you know nothing about the people or community that you are saying many insults about go to a Catholic mass sometime and talk to some of the people. They are just like you! You have painted a picture of us in which we all quote the bible and are very far right.
Also to all of the people who bash my religion i would like you to know that you are making a HUGE generalization. The only problem that the catholic church has ever had will gay people is that they want to use the word marriage for the ceremony that brings them together.
You have made some valid points, but here is where I disagree: I do not hate you for being Catholic, nor any Catholics for being Catholic. I do not make generalizations about Catholics. However, I can criticize Christians because they all share some basic beliefs, which I disagree with. I still respect their beliefs.
Catholics in particular, I can also criticize, as by identifying as Catholic, they essentially pledge support to the Catholic Church. I respect their right to do so, but as I do not support or agree with the Catholic Church, I retain my right to criticize them for their support of the Church. I have my reasons for opposing the Catholic Church (historical actions, corruption, the appearance of a huge money-making machine, the sex abuse scandal and subsequent cover-up, their anti-gay marriage stance, their anti-contraceptive stance, etc.) and thus I see Catholics as supporting/condoning their actions and stances.
The only problem that the catholic church has ever had will gay people is that they want to use the word marriage for the ceremony that brings them together.
That's just not true. The pope has had some damning words for homosexuals, gay marriage and gay families, as has the Vatican, repeatedly.
Marriage is a holy bond with god between a man and a woman.The only problem is the one single word and the fact that it means something very specific to us. If you want to have a civil ceremony go on ahead but don't call it something that it is not.
Let me put it this way. Marriage is a civil ceremony. Marriage is a social and legal contract predating the Catholic Church. Today, marriage licenses are issued to couples, and legal benefits come with a marriage (tax benefits, visitation rights, etc.) If you want to have your marriage in a church, that's great. If you don't, you don't. As far as the legal/social marriage goes, the actual marriage, the church has no role, as it should be.
The current issue is whether or not to award homosexual couples the same legal recognition and benefits given to heterosexual couples. I am less than interested in semantics, but by calling it a "marriage,":
a) You are giving the same rights and benefits
b) You are awarding the two unions equal legal recognition, e.g. a heterosexual union = a homosexual union. Neither is inferior or superior.
I do not want to call this union something it is not, but rather something it is. I want to get homosexual unions the same degree of legal recognition as heterosexual marriage, and get it called what it is: marriage.
You are right to speak of the complexity of this issue for Catholics. We are all complex individuals regardless of what religion or denomination we do or do not follow. My main take on the homosexuality issue in the Catholic church is that the Pope is believed to be God's representative on Earth aka Jesus' advocate. When one of them says something, even hundreds of years ago it is taken as law and cannot be easily undone. (darn cannot remember which one said it was bad, but I know that Paul II said it and current agrees) Regardless, it is a system that gives absolute authority to one person (there was one female pope, though most likely an intersexual). I agree with your position on how homosexual marriage should be, just give the denomination a break because it will be almost impossible to overturn this position for hundreds of years :) oh well...
I just wanted to say that I'm Catholic too, but I'm also gay. I grew up in a Catholic home and most of my friends are Catholic, but they're also very liberal.
Because I'm both Catholic AND gay, I feel like I can be unbiased when I say this: Gay marriage should be legal. The word marriage (or at least a form of it) existed before it was a "holy bond". The church doesn't own the word "marriage", and it's mostly a legal thing anyway. By saying that marriage is a holy bond with God, that's basically denying the validity of the marriages of millions of people who did not get married in the church. I want to get married in the future, and I'm not saying that the church has to recognize my marriage, but I don't want to have to settle for some civil ceremony.
I want to get married in the future, and I'm not saying that the church has to recognize my marriage, but I don't want to have to settle for some civil ceremony.
Equally though, I think you'll agree that it's unreasonable to force people to perform an act that they believe is fundamentally wrong. Churches should be allowed to choose whether they wish to perform gay marriage ceremonies under any legislation.
Marriage isn't a religious thing though. It's a legal thing, and I don't care if the church doesn't want to perform a gay marriage ceremony, that's not what I'm asking for. I just want the state/country to recognize gay marriage. Not the church.
You said, and I quote "but I don't want to have to settle for some civil ceremony" thereby implying you want a religious ceremony. Whether or not you may have one at a particular church however is up to that church. Like I said, it isn't reasonable to force a church to perform a ceremony it fundamentally disagrees with.
Interestingly, you also said "By saying that marriage is a holy bond with God, that's basically denying the validity of the marriages of millions of people who did not get married in the church". I don't know what kind of God you imagine, but the one I know personally isn't limited to churches. He exists everywhere.
Marriage does not exist solely in the church. People who don't believe in God get married all the time, and it has nothing to do with God or the church, but their marriage is legitimate. I don't want to force a church to perform a ceremony it disagrees with. I don't want to get married in a church because they disagree with it. I want the STATE and the COUNTRY to recognize gay marriage and all the benefits that any straight couple gets with it. I don't want a civil union or domestic partnership because it's not the same thing.
Yes, not religious, but many religious people want to be accepted by their congregation because their congregation is their community. Whether our community is religious or not people want to feel accepted and included. This is probably why homosexual advocates seek religious change so they can be both married and not shunned by their loved ones. That is my opinion, I may not understand :)
I strongly agree here. Gay marriage should be legal, but no one should force churches against their will to perform marriage ceremonies.