You already know what most people will say.
Far right: Yes. It is a difficult choice, but can be overcome. There are bad things to being gay, but some people live with it the way geeks live with ridicule because of their strangeness that they could change.
Far left: No. You can't choose who you fall in love with. You're just born that way. Why would someone choose to be teased, rejected and alienated by society and their loved ones?
Well, to be fair to the right, some people, like geeks or weirdos, don't care about being teased or bullied or rejected because of the things they like. Even straight couples are willing to be teased or rejected because of their choice of a partner, but it's for love, right? Then again, is there really such a thing as true love at all?
Maybe it's just physical. Let's be honest, being gay or straight depends mostly on sex. If you fall in love with someone online then find out their not th gender you like, you probably wouldn't want to be with them the same way you did before.
For all we know, we do choose who we fall in love with. We make decisions about how to interperet our feelings, how to react to a person's actions or thoughts, when judging something they do or believe in, those are all little choices. Bu are they really what make us fall in love with people?
But it's true, if you want to love someone, why make it someone you're family or friends would reject you for? Why pick someone you can't have kids with or marry?(If that's what you want)
In Chrsitianity, the Bible says at least three times that being gay is wrong. But the only reason it would be wrong is if it's a choice, because sin is about disobeying God's will and rejecting the truth of his law and words. You can really only go against God's law by choosing to reject or go against it, like choosing to steal or choosing to ignore Jesus once you've heard the truth, or choosing not to even try to be a better person. So how can something be a sin if you don't choose to do it? (please no religious bashing from any sides in this discussion) Many christians who don't support being gay say that it's a hard thing to overcome but can be done, but how many gay people do they know that have actually stayed celibate or gone straight?
Main questions wiht this issue: Is it a choice? Can you choose who you fall in love with? Why or why not? If it is a choice, why would you choose to be gay at all?
EDIT: If you have anything directed specifically at me, the one posting this, I'm not going to read it. The discussion is mainly for other people who wanted to discuss it, and I lost track of the comments months ago anyway.
Being gay can be a choice. It can be a conscious decision, saying you know what? I'm only gonna date people of my gender right now. I don't have to date the opposite gender, even if I am attracted to them. I don't have to be in a relationship with them.
However, for many people, it's either an unconscious decision or not a decision at all. Love and sex are complicated creatures, and we certainly can't control them. But regardless of whether it's a choice or not, I think the most important thing we can do is be tolerant and open to these people. Whatever their sexual/romantic/etc. orientation is, and regardless of the decisions they've made we're all humans, and we have to respect that. There's little as oppressing as becoming dehumanized as people. Without respect for all people, one could argue that everything we've ever done was for naught without the ability to recognize others as people, with all their wonderful peopleness.
However, for many people, it's either an unconscious decision or not a decision at all. Love and sex are complicated creatures, and we certainly can't control them
Disagree. Disagree BIG time. We can control them, we just sometimes will choose not to. We will choose short term elation over long term fufilment in some cases. We'll choose how we feel over how we know things could work. There's all kinds of ways we can control them. It's just that popular culture feeds us the lie "how happy etc you feel right now is the most important thing! Let your desires run wild! Take what you want! Let your feelings control you!" etc. It's a very seductive narrative, but it's not true.
What I meant is not that we can't control them at all (which would disagree with the first part) but that often shit happens that we can't control, like why do you fall in love with who you do? But yeah, I agree with you completely. Should've clarified that, sorry. =.=''
often shit happens that we can't control, like why do you fall in love with who you do?
Disagree. The idea that we can't control who we fall in love with is a massive massive cultural myth, designed to justify our crazier actions and weave them into some kind of acceptable narrative. The feelings of attraction/infatuation etc are not love. Love is something much much deeper than that.
What I'm talking about isn't the issue of going out with the boy with the eight tattoos just to get back at mom. What I'm talking about is things like: "Why am I gay? Why do I like skinny guys over stocky ones?" And what I mean is that one cannot control every aspect of their sexuality/etc., etc. I admit that often people are attracted/infatuated with people, but I'm not talking about whether I love my sister or not; I certainly love my sister, but I don't have to romantically.
And sometimes just a combination of two people at one time can yield some pretty whacky results, but at another time with different factors yield something completely different. Relationships are hard to keep up, and your emotional state can (for example, not necessarily only) be pretty arbitrarily shitty for one reason or another and it can ruin a relationship.
But again, I agree with that. Just using it as an example, tho.
Also, sometimes you just don't love someone. As much as you may like them as a person, as a friend, you just can't. Emotional states/physical stress can change a lot of things as well.
Look, I'm not going to argue with a guy that I essentially agree with. I keep trying to clarify, then doing it wrong, and then you keep disagreeing with me. I think we should both step back and look at the big picture again.
Vertigo, I've thought this over for some time, and I'm getting tired of debating semantics, and when marriage first existed, and sparring with Bible passages. You have summarized that while it may not be a choice to feel attracted towards someone of the same gender, it is a choice to pursue such feelings and enter into a relationship with that person, as homosexual relationships aren't "part of what God created as best for someone."
Not all people need sexual or romantic companionship to be complete, but not everyone was made to be a celibate monk, and not everyone wants to be. I still maintain there are some people who will be genuinely unhappy in this lifestyle, no matter how long they maintain it. So what gives you the right to deny these people happiness, or force them into a lifestyle they do not want? The answer is simple: the word of God. A God whose existence and holy book you choose to believe: that is a choice.
But that's besides the point, and if it isn't, I don't care much to debate religion, either. I will be very direct, and make this criticism one of God. If you believe in the Holy Bible in its entirety, the Deuteronomy phrase condemning homosexuality is very clear, as you have said. God is against homosexual relationships, and may very well send those who pursue them to Hell. He is intolerant and homophobic, as demonstrated by his anti-homosexual edict. Even if I believed in Him, I would not listen: irrational, stupid orders given by any figure of authority can be criticized. I can criticize God as homophobic and hetero-normative. And so I choose to. No one should have to bow to His stupid demand and allow His homophobia to dominate their lives and deny them the happiness of a relationship. He transcends a moral leader, becoming a bigot.
So what gives you the right to deny these people happiness, or force them into a lifestyle they do not want?
Please quote me anything where I have suggested forcing anyone to do anything. The whole point of being a Christian is to choose the action for themselves.
If you believe in the Holy Bible in its entirety, the Deuteronomy phrase condemning homosexuality is very clear, as you have said. God is against homosexual relationships, and may very well send those who pursue them to Hell. He is intolerant and homophobic, as demonstrated by his anti-homosexual edict.
He isn't homophobic. He doesn't fit it for several reasons. First, salvation is still open to gay people, the same way it is to everyone. Second, he did not make people gay, so he does not fear 'people' so much as know that their actions are not how he created them to be. He could only be described as intolerant the way that the washing machine company is intolerant of you putting maple syrup in the drum as opposed to washing powder.
I would not listen: irrational, stupid orders given by any figure of authority can be criticized. I can criticize God as homophobic and hetero-normative.
No, you can't. If God is as he is described in the Bible (and since you are judging what is said in the Bible, you are in no position to move from that ground) then he is all knowing. Hence, it isn't irrational.
No one should have to bow to His stupid demand and allow His homophobia to dominate their lives and deny them the happiness of a relationship. He transcends a moral leader, becoming a bigot.
He may know that he has something ultimately better for them. Ultimately, the purpose of the Christian life isn't to be happy. God isn't concerned with our happiness as much as our righteousness. We should be the same.
Follow the logic through. God says homosexuality is wrong. That isn't the same thing as homophobic. Homophobic would be denying them heaven automatically. Homophobic would be striking them down the instant they committed that sin. Homophobic, quite literally, is fear of homosexuality and homosexuals. God is not homophobic.
In short David, if you're going to judge God on what he says in the Bible, you have to judge him based on all of what he says. You can't just pick and choose. If you judge him on the sections about homosexuality, you have to keep that in context of the fact that he created the universe and the concept of human sexuality and knows everything there is to know about it. So when he says homosexuality is wrong, because of his nature that isn't homophobic. You can't use that statement to judge God in isolation of the rest of the context of who God is.
Yeah David, you can't judge god for what he says. You have to judge him for the things he's done. Like genocide.
If you want to debate whether or not God's killed anyone illegitimately, I suggest you do so in another thread.
The point I was making is that you cannot take one aspect of God and examine it without considering all others.