Hello everyone! I finally decided to sign up as a nerd fighter as I love the thought provoking and intelligent analysis that John/Hank do in some of their videos. Anyways, I was doing some reading on random sites about patents and next thing I knew I stumbled upon a strange documentary that was about how males in society seem to be treated as lesser instead of above our female counterparts (please I am not saying I agree with sexism or that "men are better," It is nonsense). I didn't completely agree with many of the statements from the videos, however I did find some of the points raised valid and worth a healthy debate.
For example, from the videos I watched it lead to me seeing a video with the title above from "TheAmazingAtheist" that I found pretty shocking (I know it is a slightly older video, and if you don't know what I am referring to it should be very simple to find on youtube.) Why were these women receiving praise? Why is it acceptable for females to do "x" but horrendous for a male to do the same thing? I am quite young so I do not know what it was like when women were not treated "equally", but I find it offensive seeing advertisements for Philadelphia cream cheese where men are "man slaves" or are portrayed as a foot stool for a woman. Why did I never find this troubling? Why is it okay for commercials to do stuff like this, but it would be disgusting if a woman was in the mans place? Are we that ashamed of how awful women were treated before I drew my first breath?
I really hope one day society will look at us all equal and I really do think we are, however the last few months I have really been pondering whether we have swung too far the other way now. I know sexism still exists (which I find disgusting) and there are problems like women not getting paid as much in jobs, however I simply don't understand why I am not hearing more about this in news or really anywhere. I personally think society needs to stop itself before we move too far. The "payback" argument I find is arrogant and only degrades society as a whole (I mean if you want to be treated better by society, why do the exact same thing to males as males did to females?)
Instead of going to bed two hours ago, I got all worked up from these videos and I felt I needed some intelligent discussion to relax my mind now that the political issues are rushing through my veins. Thanks for your time!
Numbers say that women are not excelling in business, etc. What that tells me, is that there must be a reason. And I am taking the blame off of men, and putting it on society as a whole. But you are not scoring any points by continuing to blame women for not progressing in society, because--as I stated before--you are not one. Frankly, I don't care that you don't think that our culture raises women to feel inferior. Because again--you have not experienced it.
Thank you for talking around my points. I will now resign from further comments, but your responses only gave evidence to the fact that you are not aware of your privilege. I may not feel privileged to be a white American woman--but I must still acknowledge that it is a privilege. Until you do so as well, I find no reason to continue this conversation.
I think you misunderstood what I said. And I will say it again. I acknowledge that I do have some privileges, but I don't accept they are universal, in the way you do. You don't seem to accept that men have any problems and any negative representations of any kind. This is my problem with feminism as a whole. It doesn't accept that any problem a man has in society can be as serious as that a woman has.
The real oppressions lies in our society's binary and restrictive gender system.
Both men and woman are guilty of being sexist.
One of my main issues with femminism is that it is fairly sexist and against men, along with the facts that it actually isn't that helpful for women and is generally disorganized.
We have the whole men are from mars, woman from Venus mindset and woman need to be empowered to rise up above men or whatever. When in reality we're both from earth and have interests and problems that cross between gender rolls and are the same.
and look at magic mike, no one complained that that was objectifying mens bodies, the clone your boyfriend kits they sell, no one complains that a man is just a toy to a woman. Because we feel we don't have the rights and we're in a place so powerful we're impossible to objectify
No one is going to whine about something being sexist against men because its like saying something is raciest against white people. It's very much possible but we're so guilty of being sexist it's hard to complain when we get it back.
We can't get equality for anyone until we stop being compedative with each other though. There is no greater gender.
I think that this is a really important discussion to have, but also that most of the people in our society that have the discussion are fixating on all the wrong things. I will attempt to explain what i view as some of the most vocal views on the topic (in relation to now), and then i will do my best to explain why i think they are both lacking a very important something to the points they are making. Note that the next two brief paragraphs are not necessarily my opinions, though there are some elements i agree with on either side of the debate.
Women have been downtrodden in most places, in most times throughout human history. Until very recently even the most progressive societies viewed women as weak, unintelligent, and overemotional. Until relatively recently, women were viewed as property, first by their families and then by their husbands, to be auctioned off and enslaved by misogynistic men, and given the dubious responsibility of birthing as many children as possible and obeying the strict social conventions set before them. Even now, when women in the developed world are given democratic and legal rights they are *still* overshadowed by a patriarchal society that demands their allegiance and obedience. Now, as always, is the time to rebel against our male dominated society.
The time for females to fight for their rights has come and gone. They got what they wanted back when they earned the right to vote in our society. Feminism is a cause long irrelevant in this day and age, women have muscled in on the territory of men and even now seek to replace us entirely. In a fit of irony, the women of the world seek to oppress and replace the men of it, turning them into second class citizens with no rights, we are well on our way there now.
Now, honestly, of either view i am inclined to agree with the former more than the latter, because i believe the latter is frustratingly fixated on extremely irrelevant details and tends towards panic and close mindedness.However! I believe that the argument has basis, and that is for one reason. In our society, women are treated unfairly. In our society men are treated unfairly. Contrary to what seems common belief these ideas do *not* contradict eachother, and there is no need to create a war between genders in order to be treated more fairly.
My reasoning: For a couple hundred years now, remarkable women have been fighting tooth and nail for the right to define their own place in society. This has resulted in all sorts of fascinating things, including the monumental leap forward of women achieving the right to vote. Many people could argue that this was the most monumental victory for women's rights in history but i disagree. I think that the most important thing to adapt the female role in society was much more gradual then that, over time they have developed much greater flexibility in what it means to be female in our society, this has enabled them much greater freedom of identity, from being able to put on pants in the morning to go out boxing to running for congress. In recent history the plight and inequality of womenkind was really blatant, so it created a societal battle to change, which opened up all sorts of thought and discussion and it has resulted in women pushing the bar further and further into allowing themselves to do more and more, i think that is a great thing. However, there is a problem with it. Men are treated unfairly by society too, maybe not in as many ways as women have, but in certainly a lot of the *same* ways. An example being something i mentioned just earlier, most people may not notice it, but some of the restrictions on what is okay for a man to wear in our society are *really* strict, and you may say "well, that's not a big deal", and i will strongly disagree. Men who decide to dress outside the norm are openly ridiculed in public and treated with disgust, and that''s not good. Also, there are a lot of limitations on how men may *behave* that are actually harmful to men as a whole. Did you know that the number of men who commit suicide is much higher than women who commit suicide? Yup. I think that the reason for all this is that while the feminist movement did a lot to spur discussion on women's rights, no big movement has done anything similiar for men, or transgendered/genderbending people for that matter. Actually, *especially* transgendered/genderbending people, no one gets treated more unfairly because of gender than them. This is why the feminist movement is *still relevant, because it's not just about women anymore, it's about all of us, and i think that every person in the world should be fighting for their freedom of identity, just not with eachother.
The problem with this is a problem of definitions, not of the actual concepts behind it. Let me start off by presenting the typical social justice thinker's view:
Opression = The cultural values, beliefs, and attitudes displayed by one group which result in one group being made worse off than another group.
So if I go to the store, and someone makes fun of my shoes, I'm not being oppressed, because I haven't been made worse off, I've just been made fun of.
Sexual discrimination = Any assumptions (negative *and* positive) which affects the way you treat those of a certain sex.
So for instance when people make fun of my rather long hair, that's not sexual discrimination, but if they do it because they think it's "girly," then it's sexual discrimination in two ways: it's sexual discrimination against me and men because the assumption that men shouldn't do things considered "girly" effected (the verb effected not the noun effect nor the verb affect, Nerdfighters) and it's sexual discrimination against women because it's assumed that all women have long hair. (Most sexual discrimination is two way.)
Sexism = Sexual discrimination AND oppression.
So the under this set of definitions (perfectly valid), the above instance is *not* sexism, because while I don't like being made fun of for my hair because of my sex, I'm not being oppressed.
What would be sexism is if I walked up to a girl and said, "I can't believe you have short hair like that, Alice!" Why? Well, because that's sexual discrimination, obviously, AND because (like 99.99% of sexual discrimination against women) it goes alongside a history of oppression -- short hair being seen in this culture as a symbol of power and authority, if we discriminate against women for having it, what we're really doing is oppressing them for having a symbol of power, and that's obviously oppressive.
So that's why people mean it's only sexist when men do it. And women can't be sexist against their fellow women, because their sexual discrimination lacks an oppressive feature -- like, for instance, if Mariam walked up and made that comment to Alice, it wouldn't be oppressive because she's not part of the group who benefits from the cultural values underlying her comment.
However, clearly sexual discrimination increases world suck no matter who's doing it or who it's directed toward. That's why so many people get upset when they hear that White straight upper-class men can't be the victims of racism, heterosexism, classism, or sexism -- because they *can* be the victims of racial, orientational, class-based, and sexual discrimination, and that's not a good thing, and they don't realize that (according to most people's definitions) those are two separate things.
I personally feel that we should use "sexism" to mean any kind of sexual discrimination and "sexist oppression" (oppressive sexism?) to mean sexual discrimination with oppression, simply to avoid that confusion. But I've got no problem using the terminology currently in vogue.
Clearly (going back to the more social-justicey terminologies) sexism is the greater problem of the two, every day of the week. I mean, I don't like being the victim of sexual discrimination, but it's never made a big difference in my life the way sexism makes a difference in the lives of every single woman and girl (and man and boy by proximity), every hour of every day.
God this was a long post.
Hey guys! This post my friend wrote is super relevant to this thread: http://malcolmm.cc/2012/11/the-war-on-possibility/
I'm still working on formulating my own response to the fox news article mentioned in his post (http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/11/24/war-on-men/), but I would love to know what all of you think!
Have a lovely day :)