Jesus' Teachings... wrong?

[Haley Blanchard]

I'm going to get a lot of hate for this, but I just need to ask about it. 

The teachings of Jesus are supposedly written in the Bible and known all over the world to this very day. One of the most famous ones is the following: if you do good in life on earth than you shall be rewarded with the Kingdom of Heaven. 

If a Christian (or any other person, I suppose) were to live their life as a good person for the purpose of making it to Heaven, eternal happiness, and such, is that just being good for an ulterior motive? Does that mean, then, that it is wrong? The Catholic Church states that doing a good deed for the sake of looking good or getting benefits doesn't really count and is not good at all. 

Then why, I ask, does it seem that Jesus is sort of tempting us to do this with a prize (Heaven)? 

I, myself, have been born and raised Catholic, but I am now more Agnostic, if anything. Thanks to those who reply. 

[Haley Blanchard]

Would you rather me call you a wanker? 

Right, so where Jesus says things you don't like, you put it down to Constantine (Which I should point out is a mistake on your part, since we have 1600+ copies of the gospels from time far before Constantine) but the parts you do like are perfectly fine to attribute to him

^ If that's not nit-piking, I don't know what is. It sounds very argumentative to me. Almost as if you're questioning his intelligence. Your reply to my post sounds like you're looking down upon me, as well. 

To be quite honest, though, I don't care whether or not you participate. I was merely being polite in an immature fashion. It's similar to a five year old apologizing to a friend for stealing a toy and not really meaning it. Excuse my sarcasm and annoyance at your attitude, it brought out some sassiness in myself. You unfortunately brought me down to your level. Oops, it looks like that was "a mistake on your part."

[Vertigo_One [Ops Mod]]

If that's not nit-piking, I don't know what is.

Hint, its not. Someone was saying that they liked Jesus's teaching. I gave an example of Jesus's teaching that is less popular (the idea that no one can get to heaven except through him) and asked what they thought. That isn't nit picking. It's making a point. Nit picking would be taking an absurd and dull technicality and focusing on it.

It sounds very argumentative to me. Almost as if you're questioning his intelligence. Your reply to my post sounds like you're looking down upon me, as well.

Argumentative, because... you know... I'm making a debating point. That isn't nit picking. Nit picking would be picking up on a technicality. I am not looking down on you, but I am disagreeing with your point.

To be quite honest, though, I don't care whether or not you participate. I was merely being polite in an immature fashion. It's similar to a five year old apologizing to a friend for stealing a toy and not really meaning it. Excuse my sarcasm and annoyance at your attitude, it brought out some sassiness in myself. You unfortunately brought me down to your level. Oops, it looks like that was "a mistake on your part."

Please quote me something that I said that was "immature" or "insincere". I've made an argument and disagreed with someone. I'm sorry if that somehow offends you, but if you look at the title of this page, it is "debate" amoungst other things. So expect to have people disagree with you.

[Fake Crowley]

Possibly.

 

There are two possibilities for how we should take his teachings: One, he knows our every action and has predicted that what he taught--and, in fact, every single action he ever made--will lead us to paradise, no matter how we choose to interpret it. Thus, evil was an unavoidable side effect on the road to paradise, and we have no free will. Two, he doesn't know our every action, and left it up to free will. If this is the case, then presumably we've already failed, given that presumably not everybody has followed the rules up till now. Even assuming that they have, I'm going to be a dick and ruin the whole paradise thing for everyone and go contradict a rule in the Bible, thus making the Bible's rules irrelevant.

 

Unless you interpret it as the laws he taught were, you know. Applicable to every situation. In which case, I have a bridge in London you might be interested in buying.

 

However, I prefer to interpret Jesus' (Possible) divinity as God trying to see things from our perspective for once. Sort of putting himself in our sandles. Having had his hands nailed to a piece of wood and suspended from the wounds, I like to think that this might explain why he's giving us the silent treatment. I would be upset too, actually.

[Vertigo_One [Ops Mod]]

The teachings of Jesus are supposedly written in the Bible and known all over the world to this very day. One of the most famous ones is the following: if you do good in life on earth than you shall be rewarded with the Kingdom of Heaven.

Could you find a verse to support this? As Carissa has pointed out, a more common understanding isn't that you do good things to go to heaven, but rather that you get to heaven through your belief (see John 3:16). Now you are right in so far as the Bible does say that belief without actions in response is dead, but it isn't the actions themselves that save you (someone can lead a very "good" life by action standards, but still reject God).

If a Christian (or any other person, I suppose) were to live their life as a good person for the purpose of making it to Heaven, eternal happiness, and such, is that just being good for an ulterior motive? Does that mean, then, that it is wrong? The Catholic Church states that doing a good deed for the sake of looking good or getting benefits doesn't really count and is not good at all. 

Then why, I ask, does it seem that Jesus is sort of tempting us to do this with a prize (Heaven)?

The primary reasons the Bible says we should do good are two fold. Because we love God, and because we love others as we love ourselves. It is natural that in a loving relationship the people in it give each other things they like. God isn't tempting us I would say. Rather, he is showing us love. If we are doing things for a reward in heaven, you have to ask, who are you trying to please, and the answer is God. Since God is the ultimate, trying to please him can only be a good thing.

[Haley Blanchard]

Could you find a verse to support this? 

http://bible.org/seriespage/wealth-and-kingdom-heaven-matthew-1916-30

^Is that website sufficient for you? Matthew 19:28-30. 

a more common understanding isn't that you do good things to go to heaven, but rather that you get to heaven through your belief (see John 3:16). 

I understand your point. However, what if the action(s) is bad but the intention is good? As in, sacrificing life in the name of God or some other immoral act committed by someone not in sound mind? No one knows the answer to that--not for sure, anyway. I asked a devout Christian man in my school high in authority (from the religious department) and he says no one can know for sure. 

Plus, what if believing is not based off of your love for God but for the sole reason of wanting to make it into Heaven? (Which, I feel inclined to mention, isn't really a place but more of a state of being.) 

And again, Christian is not the word I should have chosen, since my knowledge is limited. Catholic would be a better word to use. 

The primary reasons the Bible says we should do good are two fold. Because we love God, and because we love others as we love ourselves.

That's not exactly true. I know what you meant to say, but that statement is 100% false. By "we" I assume you mean mankind. If we (as in ALL human beings) loved God, then there wouldn't be atheists around, would there? There are people out there that despise others in the world, too, so the second part of that statement isn't true, either. I believe what you were trying to say is that we SHOULD love God and we SHOULD love others as we love ourselves. We human beings are not that perfect. 

If we are doing things for a reward in heaven, you have to ask, who are you trying to please, and the answer is God. Since God is the ultimate, trying to please him can only be a good thing.

... A good thing for OURSELVES. Again, wanting to please God is all well and good, but the ulterior motive- a spot in Heaven-- is not. 

[Vertigo_One [Ops Mod]]

^Is that website sufficient for you? Matthew 19:28-30.

No it isn't. This section is describing what Heaven is like. It isn't describing how you get there.

I understand your point. However, what if the action(s) is bad but the intention is good? As in, sacrificing life in the name of God or some other immoral act committed by someone not in sound mind? No one knows the answer to that--not for sure, anyway. I asked a devout Christian man in my school high in authority (from the religious department) and he says no one can know for sure.

If you are not of sound mind, that is a different matter. IE if you have some kind of illness or injury that is causing you not to think straight. However, if you are just of the belief that killing someone in God's name is right, you are not taking the Gospel seriously.

Plus, what if believing is not based off of your love for God but for the sole reason of wanting to make it into Heaven? (Which, I feel inclined to mention, isn't really a place but more of a state of being.)

That isn't love. Love is unconditional, based on who the person is, not what they do for you. Love for God in this context is because of who he is. As a result of who he is, he did what he did for us, but it is not loving God just to want a place in heaven. Also, how is Heaven a "state of being" when revelation describes its dimensions.

I believe what you were trying to say is that we SHOULD love God and we SHOULD love others as we love ourselves. We human beings are not that perfect.

Please read what I posted again. I'll quote it and add emphasis. "The primary reasons the Bible says we should do good are two fold. Because we love God, and because we love others as we love ourselves.". So, that isn't what I was trying to say, it is what I did say.

... A good thing for OURSELVES. Again, wanting to please God is all well and good, but the ulterior motive- a spot in Heaven-- is not.

You are still mistaken about doing good = a place in heaven. As others have said, the Bible is very clear. You cannot earn your way into heaven. No amount of Good works will get you there. You get there through faith. As John 3:16 points out, "whoever believes in him". Not "whoever has done enough good" etc. The Bible does say Faith without deeds is dead, but the deeds themselves are not enough.

Belief that it is good works that get you into heaven is an Islamic belief much more than a Christian one, so if you want to raise that question, raise it with them. The Islamic conception of God is one I've never been impressed by. He basically looks a lot like a Cosmic accountant. He's never shown us love in the way the Christian God did, never actually suffered or scarified anything for us.

[Haley Blanchard]

"And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life"

How does that describe what Heaven is like? 

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Also, how is Heaven a "state of being" when revelation describes its dimensions.

http://metaphysicalbeliefs.com/is-heaven-a-real-place-or-a-state-of...

"Heaven is not a place. It is the state of undiluted access to God and the complete, eternal happiness that would ensue."

http://www.gci.org/prophecy/heaven2 (<-- This can explain it better than I ever will, as well as http://www.gci.org/prophecy/heavens) 

"Of course, some do think in terms of "going" to heaven — as going to a "place" somewhere in space. It's understandable, because "heaven" is a convenient image to describe a state of existence that we cannot fully understand in any concrete way."

__________________________________________________________________

The Bible does say Faith without deeds is dead, but the deeds themselves are not enough.

That isn't love. Love is unconditional, based on who the person is, not what they do for you. Love for God in this context is because of who he is. As a result of who he is, he did what he did for us, but it is not loving God just to want a place in heaven.

The definition of love is not really the point, here. I was saying what if someone truly believed in God and did many good deeds in order to obtain eternal bliss in the afterlife? 

__________________________________________________________________

So, that isn't what I was trying to say, it is what I did say.

It appears as though we are having a bit of a problem communicating our points. I am not doubting the fact that the Bible is saying we should do good. Arguing that point would be stupid. I'm saying that we human beings don't all completely, 100 percent, love and believe in God. According to one estimate, about 2.3% of the world's population are atheists, while 11.9% are nonreligious. Nor does everyone here on earth love each other. I would also venture to say that more than 99% of the world's population hates at least someone. People are selfish and most of us can't really put others on the same level as ourselves. 

[Vertigo_One [Ops Mod]]

The definition of love is not really the point, here. I was saying what if someone truly believed in God and did many good deeds in order to obtain eternal bliss in the afterlife?

Your mistake is that good deeds will not get you bliss in the afterlife. The Bible is very clear, we are not saved by our actions. We can do as much good as we like, that won't save us.

http://metaphysicalbeliefs.com/is-heaven-a-real-place-or-a-state-of...

"Heaven is not a place. It is the state of undiluted access to God and the complete, eternal happiness that would ensue."

http://www.gci.org/prophecy/heaven2 (<-- This can explain it better than I ever will, as well as http://www.gci.org/prophecy/heavens) 

"Of course, some do think in terms of "going" to heaven — as going to a "place" somewhere in space. It's understandable, because "heaven" is a convenient image to describe a state of existence that we cannot fully understand in any concrete way."

The Bible is fairly explicit. There are detailed descriptions of the New Jerusalem in Revelation. It describes it being made with things, like specific gems and even a (currently impossible) transparent Gold. Exactly how we get there, and in what manner we will exist, is very much in question, but its quite clear that it is a place. Of course, it is also a state of existence, we will not exist as we do now, certainly, but it definitely is a place. A state of being cannot happen independently of a place.

It appears as though we are having a bit of a problem communicating our points. I am not doubting the fact that the Bible is saying we should do good. Arguing that point would be stupid. I'm saying that we human beings don't all completely, 100 percent, love and believe in God. According to one estimate, about 2.3% of the world's population are atheists, while 11.9% are nonreligious. Nor does everyone here on earth love each other. I would also venture to say that more than 99% of the world's population hates at least someone. People are selfish and most of us can't really put others on the same level as ourselves.

Yes, but the point of Jesus was that because of him, we can get to heaven, even if we are not perfect. That's the whole reason behind Jesus's comming. To save us, because we couldn't save ourselves.

[Michael Lee]

Personally since Jesus' teachings are derived from the Bible, which was written quite a while back, i dont believe there is any "beyond a reasonable doubt" proof that what it says is true. However, while yeah i could be wrong, i could also be right. I see it as 50/50. Now more specific to your question, the teachings that are believed to be taught from Jesus. hmmm.... im also a former catholic. ok time to get my thoughts together. ok i liked the Golden rule bit.. but that stuff came from Confucious (i know i said the 50/50 stuff but for the sake of this lets be theoretical, because if we take the 50/50 thing into account this whole debate is moot.). umm like you stated im not a big fan of the "fear of hell" motivation. it just screams manipulation to me. i think the "do good" is nice but i dont like it when they tell you a strict guideline (especially since it was written in an older era. its like some of our (american) laws dont make sense or dont take into account the new technology or concepts that we have developed today), i believe you should figure that out for yourself through empathy and experience. I see both good and bad when i look at it. Which isnt surprising, since the concept of "good" cant exist without the concept of "bad or evil". Like us.

 

p.s. sry if i rant a bit... but i hoped i answered your question. Happy Nerding :)