Killing Animals.

[Jacqueline]

People kill animals for different reasons. Some for 'experience', for their meat, and others just because they hate animals. What is your opinion on killing animals?

[sabelmouse]

what about bodhichitta?

[Matt]

Let me ask you a question, what do you think we should do when we know the world is about to come to an end, but we do have the technology and easy capability of surviving on other planets. Should we bring a male and female of every animal on board our space ship and fly to another planet and let them roam free? We could call it Project Flood.

I put humans above every other living thing because we have the possibility of surviving beyond this world. Until other animals start coming up with their technology, I don't see them doing this. Hell, until other animals start to understand technology in general, I don't see them doing this.

[Matt]

Bodhichitta is the wish to attain complete enlightenment so that you can be a benefit to all of society. In order to achieve Bodhichitta, you must take on the responsibility of everyone else' enlightenment and happiness. You take on the responsibility of getting people out of suffering. Bodhichitta is something that all Buddhists must strive for in order to become enlightened themselves.

Many religions have things similar to this. Christianity teaches you to love your neighbor as yourself and to help everyone in their time of need out of Christian charity. It says to encourage others through times of hardship.

Islam teaches that it makes a believer unworthy to damage another person's reputation, and to curse at them. It teaches you to assist people regardless of if they are oppressors or being oppressed. Assisting the oppressor is by standing in his way and stopping him from practicing their oppression. It teaches that you should not commit violence, and that you can not be a Muslim if you have an abusive tongue. What it does say for Muslims to do is to gladden the heart of another human, to feed the hungry, to help the afflicted, to lighten the sorrow of the sorrowful, and to remove the wrongs of the injured.

My point with this is that there are many religions that teach the same basic thing which is to be good to your fellow man and to treat them as if they were not family, but yourself. I don't think that people like Gandhi are few and far between. I think that there are less of these people that have the charisma, the courage, and/or the opportunity to start a revolution for change.

[Marmaduke The Belittler]

You're cool in my book, Sablemouse; I like your arguments, but I'm going to have to heavily disagree with you.

I'd like to argue that every species except for humans only does things for their own benefit. Honestly, no other creatures on this planet give two craps about another going extinct unless it's one that helps it survive (eg, a symbiotic relationship, a parasitic one, one where the other organism is used as food, kills its natural predators, etc.). Nothing else domesticates other creatures and 100% takes care of them just for kicks and giggles, nothing else forms organizations to save the whales and polar bears and obscure South American birds barely anyone's heard about. Furthermore, no other species is protecting this planet from meteor and comet strikes, keeping seed banks and frozen animal dna just-in-case some huge natural disaster hits and the freaking planet needs rebuilding, checking how their collective actions effect the rest of the biosphere and discussing the ethics of those actions in forums and adjusting their lifestyles to for the greater good, or preparing for the chaos that will likely result from the magnetic flip that can happen any day now. That's all humanity, baby!

Other things kill as much as they can (various micro-organisms, arguably a lot of carnivores); other things destroy ecosystems, (rabbits, sheep, dogs, any species recently introduced to a habitat that natural selection hasn't had a chance to force/kill into a most likely involuntary equilibrium)


Also, when animals are born mentally disabled, get crippled, amputated limbs(the ones who can't just grow them back), or contract serious illness, most of the time, they die; that's it. Otherwise wee have the good ol' planet destroying, flesh eating, heartless homosapiens coming a long and for really no good reason but sympathy giving them medicine, nursing them to health, etc. just like we do with our own.

Plus turkeys are so stupid, if we didn't need want them for food, they would have gone extinct long a go with the combination of natural predators and rain drops.

You have to give humans our due credit for being the most awesome species on the planet. (octopi come close, though, really close)

But yeah, hunting just for the dick of it, not cool.

[sabelmouse]

all true, but! as we have the exra special brain and ability we also have extra special powers of destruction.
animals might would if they could, but they can't and while we are taking care we are also destoying the planet.

how do you know turkeys would have gone extinct?

about species being introduced; that's us again, messing things up.
if those species had taken a few milion/billion years to get to another continent they or the environment might have adjusted.

again; we have responsibility that comes with power.

[Marmaduke The Belittler]

[apparently I cant reply to your reply so I'll reply to mine]

Turkeys die in rain.

Also the whole introduced species things show that animals dont establish an equilibrium with their environment of their own volition. The only reason an equilibrium is set in their natural habitat is years of evolution and adaptation. The ones who can't hang, go extinct and the rest are just in a heavy enough competition with each other to keep any from going crazy. In nature, adjustment is done with death.

I think as far as morality and whatnot, intent plays a huge role in determination. All of the destruction we do is just a product of the natural self-preservation/advancement desire that every creature has and acts upon, but on top of that, we consciously suppress that desire for the sake of preserving things. Humans curse other humans for the destruction they cause and make attempts to repair any damage to the planet. Comparatively speaking, that's pretty responsible.

We do so much, when all we need to do is sit back and let nature take it's course. Out of trillions of species of plants, animals, fungi and bacteria, we're still the only ones with any individuals or groups that decide to go that extra mile.

My point: humanity is not as evil as you say. Not nearly.

If you don't believe me, look at yourself or the countless others who do things for the benefit of Earth in general.

[sabelmouse]

also, do you know anything about eco systems?

[Matt]

Yes. A little.

[sabelmouse]

the world is comming to an end because of us, though not the planet, but our existence, because of what we do.
leaving aside the real chances of colonising other planets, i don't know enough about it, i don't think it's nice to use up and destroy , or nearly destroy one and then move on to another.
animals have not wreaked the destuction we have, why should they came up with anything.
they just go along living and now you use that against them.

i really don't see us as the rulers of the universe and if it comes about, poor universe.

what about the bodhichitta?

cos i know plenty of people who use religion and spirituallity as excuse for whatever they believe in.

[Matt]

The world is going to come to an end regardless of if humans are on this planet or not.

It's not about using up one world to destroy it and move to another. When we have the technology to do this and to travel great distances in space, it will be all the easier to maintain a regulated human population on a planet so as not to destroy what we have. Of course, we will have to learn how to travel much faster than we currently can in space, which means we're most likely going to need to find a different, much more renewable fuel source.

I explained the reason why I brought up the bodhichitta in a post previous to this one.

[sabelmouse]

where?

the world will come to an end some time in the distant future. that is no reason to use it like a disposable hanky.

[Matt]

http://nerdfighters.ning.com/xn/detail/1833893:Comment:2009064

I don't think it should be used as a disposable hanky, but I'm not too concerned with killing animals as long as they're not endangered. When they become endangered it's a whole different ball game with them getting back to a normal population and then the cycle starting again.