Male status and sex?

[Lenore103]

Here's something I don't understand... I've heard guys talking to each other about how you aren't a "real man" until you've had sex. Do guys really feel this way?

 

No offense, I find this argument pretty pathetic. I took an animal behavior course last semester and had to observe meal worm beetles have sex. For four hours. Then I had to observe brine shrimp copulate. For four hours. Sex does not make you a man, because anything with a penis can do it. Beetles have sex. Sea monkies have sex. Giraffes have sex. I think what defines a real man is the ability to be respectful, honorable, dependable and responsible. If you can't be those things it doesn't matter if you've had sex or not you're still a boy in my mind.

 

What do you guys think? I'd like to hear a male perspective. And also, what do you think separates "girls" from "women"?

 

Sea monkies (aka brine shrimp) Oh yeah. I watched these guys copulate for four hours. It was fascinating. About as fascinating as watching paint dry, lol!!!

 

[QuantumTuba]

I think there is no such thing as a "real man," and it is simply a social construct men use to assert their dominance over others and soothe their own insecurities. Gender roles can kiss my hairy, skirt clad ass.

In response to the arbitrary nature of conceptions of "real men" and their usage to dehumanize queer and effeminate males, I once wrote the following rambling quasi-poem.

What is a real man?
A buff, hairy patriarch, waiting to dominate his world?
One who wishes to subsume humanity with his mighty hegemony?

Or is it courage?
Isn't it fascinating that being a "real man" is often just the easy, socially accepted choice.
If real men are courageous, their identity should be unfettered by society's petty voice.

So real men wear skirts, and real men suck cocks.
Real men are unashamed of whips or strap-ons.
Real men don't slut shame when choosing their mates.
And when it comes to gays or transgenders they harbor no hate.

Real men read books, even if sneered at as nerds.
Real men are unbound by the laws of the herd.

Real men are individuals, a Randian ideal.
Without the biased baggage of her Objectivist cabal.

Real men don't care if you see them as "real men."
Simply that they're comfortable with the life they're living.

[Clive-φ-Davidson ImagesNM]

My thoughts exactly, the idea that the most real of us all are simply those who are themselves, whatever that may entail. Raised from birth to fit into the hole crafted by generations falling into place, but instead they make the hole fit them, not vice-versa.

[Kayley Scruggs]

This

[Mr. E]

Rock on my brother!

(Or is it sister? ... now I'm confused =)

[Toastful]

Wow, Quantum Tuba, that was beautiful. I love looking at societal ideals of men and women, and I love it when people defy them by just being themselves.

[Peter Wiggin]

In today's society, sex is seen as a bad thing by adults, but is revered by all teens, for the reason that they aren't allowed to have it. The fact that men consider themselves superior because of a sex life just means that that's how they identify themselves, and that's how their friends identify them as powerful and manly. Is this right? Morally no, but society has, through its laws against underage sex, made it a sign of courage for teenagers to have sex, because they are going against the law. It makes them feel "cool."
When you say that men should be "respectful, honorable, dependable and responsible," that shows what the ideal man is to you. But that doesn't mean that men want to be seen like that. Men today feel the need to be superior. Furthermore, respect and honor are practically meaningless in today's society, almost no men are actually responsible anymore, and good luck trying to find someone you can actually depend on.

[Mr. E]

Sex IS a rite of passage for many young men.

Personally I believe the ability to satisfy a woman sexually (not merely "have" sex) is part of what makes a man a man, and no longer a boy. (Pro tip: forget everything you saw in porn, and listen to her with your ears, eyes and touch) Sexual prowess alone is woefully inadequate to define one as a man, it goes much deeper as the OP has defined well with her pillars of honor, responsibility, and respect.

I think virility is a manly virtue that should not be disregarded, but by itself it is rather incomplete.

In my view the ideals that set a Woman apart from the girls are that she is nurturing, intelligent, confident, and has grown to embrace and understand her femininity and sexuality, all while conducting herself with grace and a touch of modesty.

[Zirror]

I disagree respectfully.
Satisfying a woman sexually is not what makes a man a man. It's what makes a douche a douche (in every sense of the word). If you define your own manliness that way, you can only define it for our (degenerated) culture (since the 'fun activity' sex is not nearly as important in other cultures as it is in the West). IMHO sex is only for reproducing.

What I think makes a man a man are a couple of core values, combined with the freedom to be your own man, so to speak.
Those core values are courage and honor basically. Without courage, you just follow the crowd and without honor you lack the quintessential ability to be dependable and trustworthy in every way.

[QuantumTuba]

"IMHO sex is only for reproducing."

Why? This attitude typically leads to oppression of women and everyone on the LGBT spectrum, and really only serves to constrict the range of enjoyable human experience and modes of social organization. If someone wants to have sex for pleasure, who does this harm? Doesn't your judgmental, prescriptive, and moralistic attitude towards the sex lives of others defy your ideals of "the freedom to be your own man"?

Furthermore, this notion of our culture being "degenerated" because of our sexual liberties strikes me as absurd, but I would be interested to hear you defend it with evidence. It seems to me that you overestimate the difference between the West and the rest of the world, considering that prostitution exists worldwide.

[Zirror]

I have no idea how you link 'sex is only for reproducing' and oppression of women, but I am looking forward to an explanation of that.

It is noones harm, don't get me wrong (maybe my phrasing was a little ambigous.). But the point is, being a man has nothing to do with being able to sexually please someone. If a man (or a woman for that matter!) wants to enjoy sex as a kind of interaction, then let him/her. The point is, it is not REQUIRED to be a 'man'. It is entirely optional in my opinion.

Well, you know, try to see it the other way. In our overly sexualised (western) world (seriously, you can't go anywhere without seeing a naked or partly naked woman on a poster or bill-board, praising a only marginly connected product) woman are judged by their appearance far more than by their brains and character. You are told if you don't look "good" (malnurished) as a woman, you better feel bad and buy certain products/join certain groups to lose weight and look better. That is far more oppressive towards woman than seeing sex only as means to reproduce IMO.

And no, you can cleary see differences in the way the arabic/far-eastern nations treat women and the way the west treats women. For example, the French (and I believe the Belgians) just passed a law that FORBIDS(!) women to wear a Burka in public, even if it insults their believes and anything they stand for. They are not allowed to hide them selves as they might believe is neccessary to preserve their grace/believe (in some way). What many westerners don't realise is that some Women want to live that way, and some are forced to. But you can't just force thsoe who want to live that way to stop it.

And sex as a fun activity is not nearly as important in other countries, especially in far eastern (e.g. Taiwan/China, not so much japan since it is pretty #westernized') and arabic countries (e.g. Saudi Arabia). And especially not the public display of the same.

To reiterate, I don't think sex is important to become/being a man. It is entirely optional. Some of the best and manliest men I know live by the rules of Asceticism.

[QuantumTuba]

Oh, I completely agree that women and men should be free to choose to live celibate or otherwise sexually modest lives without facing social stigma, and I agree that our culture often oppresses this, as your French example demonstrates. But I also think that people should be free to have whatever sexual proclivities they like, and when you said that sex was only for reproducing, I interpreted you as meaning it should only be for reproducing, not that you personally wish to only have sex for reproduction. See, when I hear the notion that sex is just for reproduction, it's typically being used by religious fundamentalists who use this idea to condemn gay sex, abortion, birth control, and other activities which invoke non-reproductive sex. As women are the ones who have to go through pregnancy, telling them that they should only have sex for reproduction constricts their reproductive freedom, and as oral sex and lesbian sex don't lead to reproduction, it limits their sexual choices. For an example of this, you need only look at the Middle Eastern cultures you cite, where lesbianism, adultery, and even being raped are punishable by death. Just as some women may prefer the Burka, others may prefer sex for pleasure rather than reproduction, and I was defending this choice just as you defend the choice to wear a Burka or be celibate. So long as we both recognize that they are choices, and that people are entitled to respect regardless of their sex life, provided that sex is consensual, we have no quarrel.

[Mr. E]

Zirror,

Wow, if calling me a douche is your way of respectfully disagreeing the I'd like to hear how you really feel!

Look, I respect that FOR YOU sex may only serve function for reproduction, but I think that any attempt to impose that perspective on others is, quite frankly, perverted.

In fact I believe that those who have promoted such repression have caused a great deal of the sexual perversion that exists in the world today.

Nature, and/or our creator has gifted humans with a level of sexuality that extends well beyond animal libido. Sex can—and in my view should—be an incredibly intimate, extraordinarily pleasurable, and possibly even spiritual experience. This kind of Love Making is part of what separates man from the beasts. (In several senses of these words)

I encourage you to re-read my post, and tell me if I was unclear in my view that sexuality (at any level) does not itself a man make.

I chose to make it a theme of my post because that many in this thread have discounted the important role that well-developed sexuality does play in the development of one's maturity.

To clarify my views:
1. The act of sex is an important rite of passage.

2. A well developed, healthy sexuality is an important part of what separates the men from the boys (and the brutes, for that matter)

3. Sexuality is only one of many important qualities that define what it means to be a Man.

Thank you for taking the time to consider my views, and to share your own.