Men and Women: Who's serving who?

[John Eric Tiessen]

Over my last four years in High School I have been snubbed at every corner in the romantic sense. That said I set out to make myself into a gentleman, determined to treat women with dignity and respect. Not to look them as objects but to treat them as equals! You know what? I am still getting snubbed.

"What does this have to do with servitude?" You ask. Well in the classic sense a gentleman serves women and treats them with respect. This does not mean that women like gentlemen though. Women like men who are strong and confident, who are unpredictable and wild. (I am generalizing I know) Who will sweep them off their feet and give them a challenge when it comes to "civilizing" them. A gentlemen is no challenge. I can infer your questionable looks at this point. So on to the main course!

If men and women are truly equal now then why do women seem to desire men who make them subservient to them? This is in tandem with the trend that women are now just as much about looks as guys are. This has resulted in many popped pills and a major expansion of the personal trainer industry. So clearly both men and women are looking to impress with their looks and personalities. So who holds the upper hand now, and who is serving who? Are women choosing to become subservient to men who have domineering personalities, or are men becoming subservient to women? Since women are now gaining more degree's it is now more likely that the woman is the bread winner. So why choose the man who thinks he is in charge? Gender roles are blurring and we could use some definitions I think. You know, besides just saying "they're equal."

[Julia Chapman]

Take it from a girl who has been unlucky in the romance department. The best relationships are friendships as well as romantic relationships. Girls will definitely want a guy who is kind to them and treats them like a person. I think that when a girl is looking for a "Prince Charming" that she is not looking for someone who will stay with her for a while. It's the guys who pay attention and show respect to a girl who will end up with her in the end. I think that (unfortunately) at this moment in time, girls are still expected to be weak, and so they need a "big, strong man" to "help" them, when we both know that that's stupid.

Honestly, wait a bit. The right person will always come along if you do your best to be kind to all. The world works in mysterious ways. :)

[Afton]

I don't know if your still looking for answers here, but it hasn't been too many days. I'm a year out of high school, so I'm probably around your age, if that factors into the relative value of my advice. Don't worry too much about romantic "failure" in high school because hardly anyone knows what their doing or what they really want. I'm actually surprised that anyone gets a decent relationship around that age.

I think the real answer to your problem is to not worry about all these generalizations. CD made a good point about the differences in what we expect and what we're taught to expect, that they aren't always the same thing. I'd like to add that what you expect won't always be what is real. Don't worry about everyone being obsessed with impressing one another. There are people who like to impress, who like to be impressed, and people who really don't care for flashy showmanship. I'm hardly an adult, but I've met so many different, interesting people in the past few months that I'm sure you will meet people who you can connect with. I'm not sure I'm making a good point here, so I'm just going to give you an example and try to explain.

I met a guy a while back who really caught my eye. I found him practicing violin in the middle of the night in my building's common room. What I found initially attractive was that he liked music and was kind of awkward, like myself, but had really interesting things to say when you gave him time an a comfortable environment. My roommate and I became friends with him because we liked some similar things. There is something to be said about common interests. Of course, being twins with someone is boring. When I found out he disregarded fantasy/sci fi, a great pillar of my existence, or that he didn't care about the old fountain pen set he randomly had, which I obsessed over, things got tense. There were other things, of course. That challenge you talked about within women and men( or really in a couple) doesn't have to be whether or not your mate is Lawful Good. For me, the challenge was accepting a person who was my obvious equal but whose opinions were different. He just thought so differently that I hated him a bit, but he was nice to be around. I decided to like him for who he was rather than what he presented all the time, or what I expected him to be. Being a real person is what made him, and every other person I've met so far, interesting.

What I mean to tell you is that high school is nothing compared to the rest of your life. You don't have to be fascinating, beautiful, and strong to find a girl, but you should think about what makes you who you are. Try joining some clubs to find people to be quick friends with, or do something new for self-confidence and that ever-coveted sense of adventure. As far as I can see, I don't attract the people I want when I'm trying. The guy I met certainly wasn't when I met him. If you can be a person who can remember to be awesome at least half the time, you'll attract the people who you're likely to be attracted to.

[Afton]

Holy potato, that was longer than intended, sorry. I hate tl;dr.

[John Eric Tiessen]

Thank you, that is a very helpful little article you wrote there ;) Don't worry about length, it is good to be specific and detailed when talking about personal experiences. Again thank you for sharing your own personal experience.

[Trevelyan]

Over my last four years in High School I have been snubbed at every corner in the romantic sense. That said I set out to make myself into a gentleman, determined to treat women with dignity and respect. Not to look them as objects but to treat them as equals! You know what? I am still getting snubbed.

You're still getting snubbed because women are not slot machines. You don't feed a certain number of chivalrous coins into them and have them fall at your feet. You don't earn points for treating girls as equals, because that should be a given. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, I don't mean it to be, but it's true.

My advice is, don't be a "gentleman", be yourself. Treat and think of women as actual equals, not people you need to 'serve', as you put it. I have way more respect for a guy who respects my opinion than one who opens doors for me but doesn't listen when I talk.

[CD]

women are not slot machines. You don't feed a certain number of chivalrous coins into them and have them fall at your feet

Using it!  So true.  Also:

women are not slot machines. You don't feed a certain number of chocolate coins into them and have them fall at your feet

[John Eric Tiessen]

Err... Well I hadn't really thought of them as slot machines, rather I was thinking more along the lines that they are indeed equals. Being a 'gentleman' in my opinion means treating the same way that I treat my guy friends. Which means that I open and honest to them and I am not afraid to tell them when they might not have made the best decision. I make plenty of jokes with them and sometimes poke fun at them, though I am always willing to comfort when the need arises.

Perhaps I gave you the wrong impression with the word 'gentleman' it might have been better to say that I treat them like I treat my male friends. I was just really bitter that all the girls that I knew were all crushing on guys who were in many ways jerks. They yelled at their girlfriends, lied to them and even cheated on them. I couldn't figure out why they were so much more attractive than myself.

I finished up high school a few weeks ago and am currently starting to understand what was really the issue.

[John Eric Tiessen]

Well I was on Facebook a few days ago and stumbled upon a girl that I knew as an acquaintance. She was a friend but not a close one, so I asked her what I could have done differently in high school to make myself more available to the opposite sex. Well she said something that really surprised me.

She said that she thought that I was a great guy! I could give you a non-paraphrased version of what she said but I would be sorta embarrassed by the number of positive adjectives that she used. That was surprising enough, that she thought I was a great person, what really caught me off guard was her reason for why she would have turned me down if I had asked her out. To put it bluntly she said you're just too nerdy. She suggested that I start watching more popular t.v. shows than Modern Marvels and other things. Rather she suggested that I watch Big Bang Theory and other popular t.v. shows. So I can live with that and it is something that I can do to improve my relationships with women. Becoming a better conversationalist is important, not only in dating but also in business. So I am not worried about losing myself to try and impress others, rather I am trying to improve my ability to communicate. Or at least, that is how I like to think about it.

[Hutch Hogan]

Try hanging out with more friends, going out for lunch and just shooting the bull.  Practice having conversation. 

[HalfBloodPrincess]

Disclaimer: I have not read all of the comments and these may sentiments echoed elsewhere.

I thought your post was interesting and well-intentioned, but I do have a few issues/ comments/objections. 

A) You seem to be lumping all women into a  homogeneous mass that all want the exact same in in a romantic relationship. You acknowledge the generalization one but it comes up again as a slightly different issue in par. 3, which brings me to

B) You fall into the "good ol' days" trap with the statement "women are now just as much about looks as guys are". Physical attraction is a factor for both genders and always has been. Please show me some evidence that this has not always been the case. 

C) (This point is based on personal experience and may or may not apply to your situation)

I've often noticed that when guys consciously try to be "gentlemanly", it often ends up less like respect and common courtesy and more like "oh no! we can't offend or inconvenience the delicate little flowers!" Basically its the difference between holding the door open because you went through first, and pushing up to the front of a group and tripping all over yourself so that you can hold the door open for the ladies even though it causes a big hassle for everyone involved. 

[John Eric Tiessen]

I would actually be more interested in you giving me your opinion on the last section of my question. Specifically the whole who is serving who bit. After all can a man be a trophy husband just like a trophy wife? Thanks for the input, don't worry, I don't inconvenience people to hold doors open for girls. I treat them as equals, not fragile flowers, but equals. I talk to them like I do my other guy friends.

[C. Whalen]

I have to say first that I disagree with your assertion that you can't be a gentleman and still present the "challenge" that women supposedly look for.  It sounds like your definition of being a gentleman is a little bit pandering, but you don't go into detail so I won't assume that's true.  What I will say is that the mistake of a lot of people who say that they behave in a way that they think will attract the opposite sex, but mourn that it has failed, is that they do not -openly express their interest- to the person or people in question.

Next, gender roles are blurring; you're correct.  I don't think I can answer your call for definitions, though.  Traditional ones?  New ones?  Why do we need them?  If men and women are becoming more equal (which they aren't yet, but are getting there, which is why gender roles are blurring in the first place), why do we even need gender roles?  I don't want people to make assumptions about me based upon my sex or gender, I want people to draw conclusions from my thoughts and actions.  You know, as an individual, regarding the things I can control, rather than something I was born with.  To me, the request for definitions of gender or sex roles is a bit like saying that because African Americans are free and are reaching a more equal state in society, we need a new definition of their role.  It's ridiculous.  I refuse to make evaluations like that based upon birth characteristics like skin color, race, height, hair color, or indeed gender, sex, or sexual orientation.  Many may not agree with me, but this is my opinion, and I think it makes more sense than the idea that someone must be or is always subservient, or that gender roles are a definite reality and that defining them is necessary at all.