Men's Rights

[jessica r]

(without any idea of how I got there) I recently read about Men's Rights and some of the issues for which men fight. I will be honest, as a woman I was shocked and then somewhat amused and slightly annoyed that some men felt the need to define their rights, when "rights"-particularly in the US, were written for men and then women and other minorities had to step up and define and claim those rights. But after I opened my mind to these issues I found that some are very interesting and relevant. So I wanted to post to see what other people think. Here are some of the issues, in no particular order. Men, feel free to correct me if I state something the wrong way or to add something to the list:

1) Men have responsibility to children they father without a choice in the matter of abortion
2) Men make the same amount of money for physical labor as a woman who cannot perform the same physical tasks
3) Men are still expected to "court" women and pay for items on dates, etc
4)Men are required to register for the draft while women are not
5)Men often lose custody of children in divorce and rarely receive child support when they do win custody
6)Violence against men committed by women isnt taken seriously (rape, spousal abuse)
7) Men dont have the creative freedom in their dress codes that women do
8)Men often do not get paid paternity leave
9) The preference of women and children over men in emergency situations
10) Men receive harsher punishments for crime

All of these issues are based on trending data. There are also some issues about men dying sooner than women, girls performing better than boys in school, more money and attention being given to breast cancer research than prostate cancer research.......

[Mason Brown]

I would LOVE to wear different things to work other than black pants, white shirt, tie. Where women get to wear a lot of stuff, men can only wear 1 maybe two types of clothing sets to work. That being said women also get to wear fancy dresses and other things for nights out/ what have you. Men get to wear....black pants, white shirt, tie. If you are feeling more casual, no tie >_<</body>

[Katie]

I agree with most of what Decepticon said, but just to elaborate on a few...

"1) Men have responsibility to children they father without a choice in the matter of abortion"
I would like to see the need for high child support payments to go down. This includes more support from the government, enforcement of better policies for single mothers in the workplace, etc. Or, to go back even further, more public awareness of contraception to avoid the whole surprise baby mess in the first place.

That being said, I do believe that, currently, men who conceive a child with a woman who chooses to keep a baby have to offer some support. This isn't about man vs. woman, it is about the welfare of the child. Like it or not, the child exists, and it has to be fed and clothed somehow. Forcing a woman to have an abortion because you won't pay for a child is infringing on her bodily rights just as much as forcing her to keep a child. If the woman is well-off or can otherwise comfortably pay for the child on her own, I don't see the point of child support. I also think we should try to go easier on men who are minors who lack maturity and are unable to work full-time, along with men who are even worse of financially than the woman. More awareness that abortion isn't shameful and encouraging more people to adopt unwanted children will also help. If possible, however, I think the male in question has an obligation to help out. Like I said before, I would like to see these types of situations eliminated, but, for the time being, we have to take into consideration the welfare of a child.

"2) Men make the same amount of money for physical labor as a woman who cannot perform the same physical tasks."
Men make a little over 30 cents on average than a woman. Besides, if this is true, it is a good thing. Just because a person is physically incapable of doing one job doesn't mean they don't deserve as much money. We can't help how we're built.

"6)Violence against men committed by women isnt taken seriously (rape, spousal abuse)."
This is true, and should be stopped, but a lot more violence of this nature occurs againt women. It is an element of male privilege that males are much more unlikely to be sexually assaulted or in the victim half of an abusive relationship. According to the Rape, Abuse, and Incest National Network, 9 out of every 10 rape victims is female, and 1 in 6 women will be raped, compared to only 1 in 33 men-both of which are way too high, but it can't be denied that women are at a higher risk. Both the fact that the violence that does occur against men isn't taken seriously and that it occurs so much more to women are results of societies idiotic ideals of masculinity.

Male privilege exists:
http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2004/09/15/the-male-privilege...
http://blog.shrub.com/archives/tekanji/2005-11-22_72

When it no longer exists, I will be more concerned with men's rights.

[Matt]

"I think the male in question has an obligation to help out."

Why? Why should the male be forced to help out the female with the child if the male doesn't want the child but the female does? This all comes down to the female having the ultimate choice when it comes to abortion even though a baby can affect both of their lives to a great deal. Why does the female's choice trump the male's choice in both for or against abortion cases? If the male didn't want the baby but the female did, it should be solely the female's responsibility just like it's solely the female's responsibility to make the decision of whether or not to keep the baby. To argue that the next 18 years of the male's life is subject to what the female decides on an issue of abortion is bull shit.

"Just because a person is physically incapable of doing one job doesn't mean they don't deserve as much money."

What about if person A isn't as good of a lawyer as person B, is it fair to pay them equally? One of them can get the job done, and the other can't. Would it be wrong to fire a female because she isn't physically capable of doing the job that is required of her or should the business be forced to continue to pay her to do a job that she can't do? (I'm just playing devil's advocate here, btw)


I've got a question for you... Why is it that whenever anyone brings up problems in society that involve males being treated unfairly, you bring up how women have it worse as if that even answers the problem at all? Especially when we're talking about men that are raped and beaten by women? I would think that this would piss you off in a different way actually. Instead of talking about how more women get raped and beaten by their spouse I would think that you would be pissed off that the reason why it is not taken seriously is because a woman did the raping and the physical abuse. Either way, I think this statement:

"Male privilege exists... When it no longer exists, I will be more concerned with men's rights."

Is bull shit.

[jessica r]

I read an article about a case where a man tried to fight against paying child support for a child that he did not want. The court ruled that the child's welfare was more important.

[Matt]

Which is rather ridiculous considering they don't care if a woman aborts the child before it's born. Basically, if a woman can make the decision that she wants to keep the child so the man must pay child support, then a man should also be able to make the decision that he wants to keep the child and the woman must pay child support. Of course, that would be a complete violation of woman's rights because it's her body and what not, but if her body is going to affect the man's life for the next 18 years I don't give a damn if it's her body or not. Her 9 months or the next 18 years of a man's life, which one is more significant?

[XOX]

Just to clarify, do you think a man could force abortion to a woman he knocked up?

If not, then there should not be any violation of rights.

What should be advocate for, is the legal opt out for man who could declare he want no part of the child that carry his gene. Except to give medical history, test for genetic disease, and kept in current contact in case of medical emergency.

Yeap. Even if you don't pay for it. Would you want to know that a child that is carrying your gene is dying and need your help? Thinking of worst case senario.

[Matt]

"do you think a man could force abortion to a woman he knocked up?"

Absolutely not. I just don't think that the man should have to pay for the child if he didn't want it. I also think there needs to be research done to get a fetus to grow outside of the mother's womb, say in an incubator or something, so that the man can have the baby if he wants it but the mother doesn't.

"Would you want to know that a child that is carrying your gene is dying and need your help?"

No. His carrying my gene doesn't make him any more my family and/or responsibility than any other kid that is dying and could use my help.

[Pumpkin Matt]

I'm with you on quite a lot of points but I do think that if a man who didn't want a baby neglected proper contraceptive methods that is where his control over the situation does (and should) end.

[Matt]

So your logic is that if a man or woman, are irresponsible enough to use contraception... that they are responsible enough to raise another human being?

[Katie]

I do kind of have to agree with you on your first point, as I did not think of that before. However, as I stated before, I think the best solution would be to try eliminate the need for high child support payments in the first place. I suppose, for the child support situations that do and will arise, I'm somewhat undecided on what actions should occur.

"What about if person A isn't as good of a lawyer as person B, is it fair to pay them equally? One of them can get the job done, and the other can't. Would it be wrong to fire a female because she isn't physically capable of doing the job that is required of her or should the business be forced to continue to pay her to do a job that she can't do?"
That would be based on ability, and not gender. I'm saying that if a job requires so much physical strength that no female in the company should do it, the females working for other parts of the company should not recieve less money for equivalent or greater labor.

"Especially when we're talking about men that are raped and beaten by women? I would think that this would piss you off in a different way actually."
Did you even read my comment?
"According to the Rape, Abuse, and Incest National Network, 9 out of every 10 rape victims is female, and 1 in 6 women will be raped, compared to only 1 in 33 men-both of which are way too high, but it can't be denied that women are at a higher risk. Both the fact that the violence that does occur against men isn't taken seriously and that it occurs so much more to women are results of societies idiotic ideals of masculinity."
Idiotic ideals of masculinity I'd like to see gone, both for men and women's benefit. I was simply making a point that men have less to be concerned about-not that it is nothing to be concerned about.

"Why is it that whenever anyone brings up problems in society that involve males being treated unfairly, you bring up how women have it worse as if that even answers the problem at all?"
I react the same way if someone started a thread about how white people, or straight people, or cisgendered people are treated unfairly in society. These groups are privileged. Now, a lot of members of these groups like to deny that they have privilege, because they don't like feeling bad or guilty, or want to act like they're victimized when people point out they're lucky. It does not make you a bad person to admit that you have a huge unfair advantage in society. Discrimination against men should not happen, however, it happens very little in comparison to woman, thus I believe that issue should be addressed first.

[Decepticon]

You can't address being unfair to women without addressing being unfair to men.

Gender equality has to happen across the board, or it doesn't happen at all.

[Matt]

"That would be based on ability, and not gender. I'm saying that if a job requires so much physical strength that no female in the company should do it, the females working for other parts of the company should not recieve less money for equivalent or greater labor."

Ah ha, but what if lawyer A had a slight mental disability that affected how well he could perform his duty? Now, this isn't to say that this mental disability would stop him from doing his job, he just wouldn't be able to do it as well as lawyer B who does not have this disadvantage. Would it still be justifiable to pay Lawyer B more just because he doesn't have the disadvantage that Lawyer A does?
Also, nobody is saying that women should not be paid the same in other fields if they can do the job the same as their male counterparts. I personally think that your pay should solely reflect the job that you do. If worker A does better work than worker B, regardless of advantages that one has over the other, worker A should get paid more than worker B. If worker A is more efficient with their job, they should be paid more than worker B. Pay should be based on worker output, not gender. What is being said is that in physical labor jobs where women can not produce as much labor as a male counter-part they should not be paid the same. However, this is not to say that the woman shouldn't be paid as much if she is doing the same amount of work, it's when the woman can't keep up with the man. So as not to invite confusion, I think it should be the same thing in jobs where a man can't keep up with a woman.

I must have skimmed over that bolded and underlined part. My apologies. :(

As to the last part, the part that really does irritate me (sorry, I try to not be irritated but it does get to me), decepticon answered for me. Gender equality is one issue, regardless of whom has it worse everything needs to be fixed not just one side. All you do then is create a different balance to the inequality. Same thing goes with racial equality, sexuality equality, religious equality, etc.