Religion

[Willy]

This is a place for an intellectual and non-hateful debate over all things religious between those with an open mind. If you are not willing to think about any arguments posted here, leave right now. If you are just going to spam religious people and/or atheists with hate comments, leave right now. This should also have nothing to do with religion being bad or good for the world.

 

I personally am atheist, I have found no evidence for any God's existence. The Bible and other holy books have been translated and subjected to change many times (this is an undebatable fact). And science proves any literal interpretations worthless and untrustworthy. 

[Abreo]

Why does there need to be "justice", I'm not trying to be antagonistic but I always thought that the need for justice was a rather immature response that people have towards people who fuck with the system, I don't see why a perfect being would have it in their nature to act like that.  

 

Also hexagon is just a word, couldn't he redefine hexagon to mean a nine sided figure, and thus have created a nine sided hexagon? I know he couldn't brainwash people to believe that the word hexagon means nine sided figure but I'm pretty sure he could accomplish that through other means if he's able to guide people to any extent. 

[Vertigo_One [Ops Mod]]

Why does there need to be "justice", I'm not trying to be antagonistic but I always thought that the need for justice was a rather immature response that people have towards people who fuck with the system, I don't see why a perfect being would have it in their nature to act like that. 

Why exactly is that immature? Making people follow the reprocussions of their actions? Making people responsable? Making them accountable? All these things seem to me like perfectly acceptable actions. Justice is something fundimental. It is about right and wrong. If someone does something wrong, then there should be punishment. Why? Because it was wrong. What happens when someone does something wrong against God? Because that's what sin is. If people accept sin, and accept they've done something wrong and ask to be forgiven, then they can be. If they don't, they just accept the punishement and the consequences of their actions.

 

Let me give you an example. When someone kills someone else in a kill or be killed situation, by and large we view that as ok, because he had no option. There is no punishment there. Then lets say someone kills someone who was doing nothing too them, kills them in cold blood. We feel a punishement is deserved. Then imagine they killed a relative, someone they should have loved. We feel more emotively that punishment is deserved because not only had this person done nothing to them, but also loved and cared for them. Then lets say this person killed a parent, now not only having killed someone who loved them, they've killed someone who provided for them and cared for them in every way possible. Finally, lets imagine someone killed someone else who not only provided for them, loved them and cared for them, but had no direct oblication to them, but yet had done all in their power to take care and look after this person. Do you not think that you'd feel very indignant if someone hurt someone else who had done all that for them?

 

The point being is that we have justice as a payment, not only of simple vengence, it's not about feeling good about yourself, it's about redressing balence.

 

Also hexagon is just a word, couldn't he redefine hexagon to mean a nine sided figure, and thus have created a nine sided hexagon? I know he couldn't brainwash people to believe that the word hexagon means nine sided figure but I'm pretty sure he could accomplish that through other means if he's able to guide people to any extent.

Then it wouldn't be a nine sided hexagon anymore.

[Abreo]

It doesn't matter how I'd feel about any of those situations, I'm human, I'm controlled by my emotions to the point of flaw. Lets examine that line of logic. If it's right for me to punish someone for killing someone else simply because I feel like it's right then it would be right for me to kill someone because I feel like it's right, and it would be right for me to give up on life just because I get really depressed. How we feel isn't important, and we should try to remain in control of our emotions to the best of our ability when making moral decisions. I definitely agree that people who murder their spouse should be separated from society, and rehabilitated if possible but whats the point in punishing people? That kind of mentality just leads to repeat offenders, it helps no one. In god's case it's completely pointless, it's not like they're going to learn their lesson after suffering for an eternity in hell. The only reason that someone would send people to hell is cold blooded vengeance, which sounds immature to me. 

[Flyyn duMartier]

Hell exists, and God has the power to cast sinners into it. But it is thanks to Christ that we need not worry about it. He bought our entrance into Heaven with his blood, and that can't be reduced. He guaranteed that all people, regardless of their acts or creed, will live in Heaven eternally with the Father. I give constant thanks to God that I am truly blessed to be so redeemed, especially knowing that I sin and don't necessarily deserve it. I can't believe that a loving God would decree that any child of His would spend eternity away from Him.

Christ also served the purpose to show us how to live a good life: forgive everyone who does you wrong, especially your enemies. Give to the poor, help those who are worse off than you, and don't hold prejudices against those who society might deem as lesser people. 

[Willy]

I have almost as much issue with this version as Vertigo's. There's absolutely no reason why I should be treated the same as Hitler. I don't believe there should be a place of eternal suffering, but eternal bliss for someone who doesn't deserve it is almost as wrong. Unless God made bad people do bad things (in which case we don't really have free will), then it sounds good for them but terrible for us because God is forcing bad into our world.

[Flyyn duMartier]

No reason? All people were created in God's image, and we're each His dear child. For God, that's reason enough. The Bible teaches that "there is none righteous, not one." None of us deserve eternal life in Heaven, but God loves all of us too much to let us be anywhere else than by His side. It's human nature to be vengeful. It's hard for us to imagine truly forgiving those who have wronged us terribly. But Christ teaches us that we must love our neighbors, even our enemies. It's really hard to do this, but this is how Christians strive to live.

[Vertigo_One [Ops Mod]]

I don't believe there should be a place of eternal suffering, but eternal bliss for someone who doesn't deserve it is almost as wrong.

 

No one does deserve it. God knows that, hence why he sent Jesus. IE no one deserved it but he still wanted them to come to him, so Jesus comes along so that he can die in our place, take our punishment so that when God looks at us, if we ask it of him, he will instead see Jesus.

[Willy]

You're just using word play. I meant someone who deserves almost the exact opposite.

[Vertigo_One [Ops Mod]]

The degree is irrelevent. Jesus dies for Hitler as he dies for any of us. We're all the same, all sinners and all can be forgiven. The key is to be sincere, and it's harder to be genuinely sincere when you've done so much wrong and believed it to be so right.

[Willy]

So do you really think it's a fair system where there is even a possibility that Hitler could enjoy eternal bliss without ever having to pay any consequances?

[Vertigo_One [Ops Mod]]

So do you really think it's a fair system where there is even a possibility that Hitler could enjoy eternal bliss without ever having to pay any consequances?

 

It depends what you mean by fair. Is it fair in the justice sense of the word? No. Is it loving? Yes. And that's why I love God. Because if he was purely just, we would all be in hell. But he is purely loving and purely just. Which means we all have the oppotunity to go to heaven.

[Kenny]

Because if he was purely just, we would all be in hell.

 

So in your opinion, the sentence for every single crime, big and small, including the ones that happen only in your mind and affect no one else being invariably eternal torment is just?