As it is commonly known, poverty has always been associated with societies throughout the ages. Is it something that will be eternally? Is there any solution towards it?


Do you think based on modern political and economical advancements we will be able to generate  one day universal opulence? Some examples can include free trade and the rise of socialist ideals (The occupy ( random city) movement.. 



Or do you think it's a common difficulty societies will always face not matter what...



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Thank you for your efforts.  Would you mind posting this as a full discussion, so that we're able to reply to it's contents in more detail?  As the issues here are not just about poverty.

I do not mind; I attempted to stay on topic, but I think the issues that I felt the need to sidebar into were directly related to the causal nature of poverty.   But yes, I will repost it if you require.  Absolutely no idea what to rename the discussion other than 'poverty and causality'.  You?

Perhaps something along the lines of asking us to discuss the concepts you're we agree or disagree,  what can be improved upon....are there other issues at stake....

Almost like a 'compare and contrast' assessment.   Maybe...

What do you think about this proposition concerning the causes of, and solutions to poverty and related issues?

WULFY hello wow dude you go all out. lol    You said "

incessantly.  Yet, still, 1% of our nation holds 40% of it's wealth.  80% hold only 7%.  That is...incredible.  Unfeasible in the scale of its weight proportionality.  The argument may be made that Bill Gates, Bush's, Buchanan's, Kennedy's, Lucas', etc.s wealth was generated from proportionally harder work than the rest; however, this argument is weak.  It is exceptionally weaker when the characters of these individuals are scrutinized.  Prescott Bush earned his fortune through unscrupulous deeds, as did Gates (imho), the Kennedy's, and the Lucas'.  All through the manipulation of others and the reaping of others work.  The elite are often those that channel the energy of the entire machination beneath them.  They feed off of their collective energy as a parasite feeds off of a host."

Site your source why do you say this?

I say lets not call it social security because here in the states we have this government mandated and run (crappily I might add) insurance called social security. That is different from welfare. With welfare you don't have to put anything in. With social security you put into your account.   Now I now agree that no one should fall thru the cracks. You have won me over on that. However the system needs to be overhauled majorly. It punishes people and makes them dependent.  

I agree with this 100%, it must be revised from the ground up.  

“True compassion is more than flinging a coin to a beggar; it comes to see that an edifice which produces beggars needs restructuring. ”
― Martin Luther King Jr.

As for citing sources on the amoral or immoral practices of certain business tycoons, I will have to compile a research page for you.  I will begin immediately.

Might want to add links to existing research pages on the subjects.  There are seriously mountains of data on this, even though most social research seems to focus on the serfs.  I admire your ambition....this is a huge subject to tackle.

I'm glad you've reached a position of compassion and still retained the capacity of critical thinking. IMHO, this is a positive way to approach things.

That's sucky of them. Point out the fact that the Bible tells people to "love their enemies". You're not even enemies, they should definitely love you and do something to help.

If people were exactly what Jesus would have us be all the time, we wouldn't have needed him in the first place. Yes, I need help, but it's not my place to judge them.

I think surely the fact that you can't be bettering your position is all the more reason why you need the aid. Jesus wasn't in the habit of only helping those who got on their own two feet. He helped the absolutely helpless.

I tend to agree, but our church's culture is one of self reliance and self sufficiency. While our gospel may teach that I should receive help, our cultural traditions teach that those who are usually self reliant but have fallen on hard times are most deserving of aid. One thing I've learned with time is that while the Gospel is true and good, people and culture are often lacking. Separating what is of mankind from what is of God is not always easy, and often times good people in the church get hung up on things that they shouldn't. Leadership and humans come and go, but the Gospel remains, and I try to be extra forgiving of those who get hung up on the things of culture and mankind. 

You need to go higher up. There should be an overarching government service ombudsman with the authority to go all the way down to the bottom to deal with issues like this.

I don't think there is, especially in the US where a lot of things, even within federal programs like SSI, is up to the states. The social security administration has systems in place for each aspect of Social Security, and the proper procedure if I have a complaint about my SSI is to follow an appeal, or deal with my caseworker.

Wouldn't you be able to point out to the Ombudsman that you can't afford that proof?

I asked about that once, I was told that that isn't their problem. They told me that if someone truly needed care, they wouldn't still be alive after 5 years, and that I had to have family or someone who could cover the cost of an appointment to get the proof. They can't change anything about the regulations, it's not their problem, and to go away now, because you aren't allowed to cry here, and if you continue crying, they will call security. 

I asked about that once, I was told that that isn't their problem. They told me that if someone truly needed care, they wouldn't still be alive after 5 years, and that I had to have family or someone who could cover the cost of an appointment to get the proof. They can't change anything about the regulations, it's not their problem, and to go away now, because you aren't allowed to cry here, and if you continue crying, they will call security.

That's truly horrible.  It doesn't even begin to consider the situations where people may not have family to support them. For lots of reasons.  Some which actually put the person in a position of need in the first place.

Horrible or not, that's reality. They do not care that I was abused by my parents and left within a week of being 18, with not idea where to go. They don't care that my husband was rejected at 11 by his adoptive family for not being what they expected. They don't care that the few people who have earned our trust enough that we consider them family are not in much better circumstances, and we trust them because of this, because they understand reality in a way most do not.

Their job is not to make sure that I and my husband get what we need. Their job is to file the correct paperwork on case # __ and see if it meets appropriate guidelines and regulations for the programs we have asked for. They will get paid whether or not we get the help we need, whether or not case # __ meets the qualifications for program F or Z doesn't affect their lives.

If they did care, they wouldn't be able to do that job, because they can't change the regulations or modify the rules anyway, and if they got all upset about every person they couldn't help, they wouldn't have time to do their job.

One can sit around being horrified at how much reality sucks, one can plug their ears and hum and pretend that if you just did the same things harder with better people it would really work this time, or one can realize this is how reality works and how human nature works and try to figure out how to use reality and human nature to help the most number of people the most often. That's really the best I can hope for, that one day everyone will wake up and stop pretending that things work right because it makes them feel better.

It's stories like yours that make me want to tell people where they can cram it hard, when they say stuff like "welfare is for dole bludgers and should be scrapped".  Fuck that shit.  I take it you're from the US, which unfortunately means I can't even help vote out any politicians that make these kinds of laws.  But, I'm more than happy to tell the ignorami that they can cram it, and to you, that things will get better eventually, so just keep plugging away at it, mate!

Still there's got to be help somewhere. Maybe a women's or men's support group?  Community legal aid?  Something?  It might not be much but it's a start...


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