KEEP IN MIND: this is in no way an attack on religion and or religious people, meerly my reasons for not being a believer.

Problem number one: Why is believing in god so important to god? Regardless of a persons race, gender, and whatnot what life, in my eyes, boils down to is as follows: Are you a good person or a bad person...Whereas to the religiously faithful, it boils down to: Do you or do you not believe in god. Regardless of good or bad, believing in god and a possibly not-so-sincere apology is the ticket to heaven, regardless of how sadistic or bad someone may be. Why subjegate every single person on the planet to a test that sadistic idiots with the predisposition to faith pass with ease, and good-hearted skeptics have "failed" every single time.

Problem number deux: Manifestation...Tran/or con/ substantiation is such an issue, wether or not the wine is the blood and the bread is the body...if god wanted to quell that quarell that's divided the protestants and catholics and created so much hate...he need only manifest. Why would a god allow hatred over a very fixable issue.

Problem number three: Manifestation part two. WHY DOSN'T A GOD MANIFEST. Nothing else to say here, really. I would instantly be a believer if a god is able to manifest himself to the world. Most will say this is a test of faith, wich I cover in part four.

Problem number four: The test of faith. The religious extremests will say that all life is is a test, and as pointed out in part one, that test is one-sided to begin with. But wait, if I am subjected to the christians test, and the catholics, and the muslims, and the million other religions...why is me being an atheist so bad? A christian denies the gods of the literally THOUSANDS of other religions in the world, so me denying the existance of theirs is now heracy?

Problem numero cinco: HATE. Would a god as brilliant as to create our cosmos really allow bloodshed in his name? “Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?” - Epicurus

Problem number six: The age of the earth/evolution. I don't deny that I am a skeptic, I don't believe 100% in anything I cannot see, but what I CAN see is that the earth is a heck-of-a-lot more than 2 thousand something years old. And it sure as hell has evidence of evolution.

That's all for now...rant/hate/what have you.

Edit numero uno. Problem seven: Hell... Why does a hell exist? A god who created us in his image says it's wrong to torture our fellow man, and yet has a lake of fire and his own torture chamber to burn and kill and mame and did I mention torture the people who disagree with him. And if you want to believe mormonism, then satan himself was the son of elohene and the brother to jesus himself. Why is satan evil? And jesus good? They both had equal opportunity to get heaven, and yet due to the flip of a coin one must live in infamy while the other gets eternal praise and glory? No way, not buying it.

Tags: Atheism, religion.

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Haha, it's no biggie. Just thought I should point that out. :)
I agree. I don't believe that I need a relgion to define my moral code. I think I do that fine without a religion and I'm not out molesting children because "my relgion tells me to."
"I would instantly be a believer if a god is able to manifest himself to the world"
Lordy, that's freaky man... if a thing like that should happen I will be scared shitless and not believe it in the first place.
The kind of entity that comes down to Earth to say he has power over everything and - insert shitload of other qualities God is said to have - would sound so alien to me that I would not accept if he took over Eath.
I find this discussion endlessly stimulating. I, too, am a possibly over-opinionated teenager, but I like to think about this stuff. I revealed to many of my Christian friends that I am, in fact, atheist, and to my surprise, they accepted it. Because of this, I feel empowered :)
So, basically, I was raised a Lutheran. I'm familiar with many Bible stories and Martin Luther and the Protestant movement, but I find I don't like it. I generally agree with Alex on his points.
I'm actually on my iPod right now, so I can't be as precise as I'd like, but I'll try to reply to a few things with my thoughts:

1. I don't generally oppose Christianity. It's the adults that teach it, really. But only some of them. Some of these adults (Sunday school teachers, etc) show the likes of Kent Hovind or Ken Ham to reach their kids. These men (really only Kent) openly ridicule anyone outside Christianity...some of my friends think that Muslims are all bad people because they've been told that their holy book says to destroy all infidels...What kind of small-town fear-mongering is that?

@Amelia: I agree. I actually find I agree with the principles of atheistic Buddhism, to a degree. One shouldn't close everything out.

My finger's getting tired :D I'll check this discussion again tomorrow. dftba.
I want to point out that admist all
this discussion, nobody is going to
change anybody else's views. I've had all my views beaten down multiple times, but not one person on this discussion is going to change my views. But I want
to thank Alex
for starting this discussion and helping different people get
their ideas out there. And really? To each his own, as long as you respect everyone and try to make this world a better
Yeah, I totally agree. No one will change the way you think, and no one will change the way I think. I think the important thing here is that we're all thinking. I think the world needs more honest discussion like this.
I have something to say about your views, in the form of parts. (I was taught all this in my religion class this year. I don't agree on some of these things as much as it sounds like I do.)
Part 1- I don't see it as only being does or does one not believe in God. I think it's more is one a nice person or not? And I don't think it's important to God weather or not one believes in him. It's more about how one acts, and how one treats others. Not what one believes.

Part 2- It's just a disagreement in religion. A trivial matter. What matters in this even is the message of the body and blood of Christ. If both religions see the message then it's not a huge deal.

Part 3- I don't have too much to say on this matter. I think it's more that God shouldn't have to prove that he's real, people should just believe.

Part 4- Christians don't hate any other religion, even if you're an Atheist. They think all relgions are fine, they just think that theres is the most correct.

Part 5- God gave us choice. Some of us choose to be evil. Some of us don't.

Part 6- Christians believe in a hybrid of the two. God created the Earth, but not in 7 days. But for the people who read the bible literaly in the past they needed a number they could understand. God allowed the Earth to grow and prosper in the many years it took. He didn't just make the world like it is today. It became this way after billions of years.

Part 7- I actually just asked about this today in religion class when there was a priest in. God is all forgving, he forgives one instantly. Hell is not for him to torture people for the things they have done. Hell is for people who don't forgive themselves.
Satin is evil because he chooses to lead people on and exploit them. God does not, therefore, he is good.

P.S. It sounds as though you read the bible literaly. Don't read the words for what they mean individually. Read them for what they mean collectivally.
First of all, I'm a Christian and I believe faith comes from God, and religion is a manmade invention, trying to put order and understanding to something incomprehendable.

#1 "sadistic idiots with the predisposition to faith" I assume you refer to the bigoted, hateful people who use religion as an excuse to judge others. Those people give Christians a bad name, and they are not what being Christian is all about. Jesus taught us to be accountable for our OWN sins and not judge others, but love them.

#2 & 3 Then there would be no need for Faith. And for those who are Christian, he DID manifest himself in the form of Jesus Christ.

#4 It was called heracy maybe in the 15th century. Now you can believe whatever you want to believe. I get people saying hurtful things all the time because I'm a Christian. The last guy I dated broke up with me because I didn't feel it was right to have sex before I was married. I understand why he broke up with me because he didn't believe the same things as me. But he KNEW where my beliefs were BEFORE he asked to date me. I never pushed my faith on him. He didn't have to call me a stupid brainwashed Christian. You might get crap for being an atheist but Christians get persecuted by atheists too. The road runs both ways.

#5 Hate is not the opposite of love, hate is the ABSENCE of love. God gave us free will, to choose to follow what is right or to choose to follow what is wrong. If he forced us to be good, then we wouldn't have free will. All of the evil in the world is caused by US because we are flawed and fallen.

#6 I believe in evolution, and that evolution was the method God used to create. There's sufficient evidence to support it and as Galileo once said, "I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use." Besides, Genesis was written in ancient Hebrew as a poem. It has rhyme and meter and is intended to artistically represent creation. People thousands of years ago would never understand evolution because they didn't know about genetics or genomes or heredity or blablabla. And like Lauren said above me, they just needed a number to understand. You'll notice that in the order God created things in Genesis, he created the earth and sky on the first day BEFORE he created the sun and the moon (which we use to measure days) so he was creating stuff before time as we know it existed. One billion years to us is different than one billion years to God because he exists outside of our linear construction of time.

#7 Hell isn't a lake of fire, I think hell is a place of nothingness. Where you die and just cease to be, so atheists have nothing to worry about because that's what they believe happens when you die anyway. The fire and brimstone version of hell was created to scare people. And Satan is evil because he chose to be so. Jesus is good because he is God incarnate. (I don't really know much about Mormonism though) Also, to repeat myself, "evil" is not the opposite of "good", it is the absense of it, just like dark is the absence of light and cold is the absence of heat and chaos is the absence of order.
Hi Alex,

First of all Christians and Catholics do not hate each other because of their disagreement on communion. I am a Christian I believe that a lot of Catholics have the same belief about Christ being the only way to heaven, and that confession does not get them into heaven but the act of believing that Christ Forgives them when they go to confession. As a matter of fact, my wife was raised Catholic and she believes that confession is just a way to ask Christ for forgiveness. Your comment of God not manifesting Himself is one that many people try to argue against God, but he has manifested Himself in the form of Jesus and soon will manifest Himself again during the day of judgment. The reason for Satan being evil is because he chose to be evil, and hell was originally created for him and his other fallen angles. The only reason God will send humans to hell is because of their lack of faith in Christ being the atonement for their sins. I will not judge you for not excepting this great and awesome truth, but I will feel sad for you that you will not be joining us in the sky during the day God manifest Himself again to this world.
I would like to say just one more thing on this matter. In the bible is says that to God one day is like a thousand years. This means a thousand years on this earth is one day for God. This means that, even though, the earth may have took over a billion years to form in Gods eyes it was only 7 days. So to argue that Christians are wrong in this matter is pretty ridiculous because 7 days to God could have been a billion years to this planet we call Earth. This may confuse you but it is absolutely true.

Your fellow nerdfighter,

Benjamin Stites
Hi Ben,
I have a few replies to your comments. This is NOT meant to be an attack, etc. All due respect.
1. "I will feel sad for you that you will not be joining us in the sky during the day God manifest Himself again to this world"
-I realize that you believe what you believe, but I know that I don't like it when people tell me I'm going to hell for not believing. This only makes me more frustrated, but it seems to me like you're issuing a bit of an ultimatum: believing in Christ is the only way forward.
2. Thousand years thing
-To me, this represents something I see to extremes in the likes of Kent Hovind or Ken Ham. One of the most frequent arguments against "evolutionism" I hear is that scientists are bad, bad, evil, evil, always arguing against Creationists maliciously. Well, what about this? I don't know where in the Bible it says that a day is like a thousand years to God (I'm not very well-versed...pun intended) but I don't think it means it like you interpreted it. I think that by literally interpreting it this way, Christians have argued their views into science, and really, this isn't better than what they say scientists do (bending the truth to their will.) Also, if the thousand years thing is literal, it would only be 7000 years for 7 "days." And we're pretty sure that the Earth is (at least/about) 4.6 billion years old.

Again...not an attack. I love honest debate :D
Hi Mitchell,

You have some valid point, but I see where you use the words pretty sure. If you are only pretty sure then how do you know this to be true. You see a lot of Christians are indeed scientist and they where scientist before they became Christians. When I say one day is like a thousand years to God it means that he is outside of time. Time only exist in this Universe and the Universe God is in is outside of time. This means that the Earth could have formed within billions of years or it could have just taken the 6 days the bible claims. You see God rested on the 7th day so in all actuallity the Earth could only be 6,000 years old, but no one really know when it happened. The only thing I know for sure is that without Christ I would still be involved with gangs not excepting who I really am. I am a nerd and was concidered a nerd before I got involved with gangs. God created me to be a nerd so I have learned to imbrace it through the love of Jesus Christ. I know he is the only way we will see heaven and to say so is not a hate crime but a love crime if you will. I love your soul and I want nothing but the best for you so rather you except it or not God is real my friend. Just to let you know that I care for all my fellow nerdfighters and want them to be in heaven with me, and just because you do not except the truth it does not mean that I love you any less than before.

Your fellow Nerdfighter,

Benjamin Stites


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