The Views on Socialism in the United States

[jan herning]

One of the many things that have always blown my mind about the States is their almost fanatical objection to anything that could be viewed as socialism, Obamas health care plan being the latest example. Coming from germany, where a socialist market policy works absolutely perfect ( at least most of the time), that attitude always seemed a little screwed to me.
So my question is, could anyone from the States try and explain it to me, and while we at it, what are your views on socialism?

[Jamo]

I never said that I thought that the Iraq war was a good thing. Don't put words in my mouth.

The US also has many times more people than any other country with universal health care. I have gotten sick without health care also. I went to the emergency room and just got treatment. Yeah I had to pay more, but at least I didn't have to wait forever to get treatment that wouldn't have been as good or efficient.

One of the main reasons the US is not as good Quality per dollar as the Scandinavian countries is that the Scandinavian countries don't have more than 300 million people. If you added them all together you would have to multiply that number by 12 to match the population. More people = more room for error. If they had the same population there would be a higher child mortality rate.

Universal Heath care works much better in smaller countries because there is less room for error. There is a ton of room for error in a 300 million country.

[JustCallMeBen]

reply per paragrpah:

-I didn't, I'm just pointing out MANY things happen that not everyone agrees with, starting a war being the worst example. I also brought Iraq up because that illegal war (UN didn't approve it) was passed through congress faster than this health care bill...

-Have you ever BEEN in another country with HC? If you ahd, you would see trhough the republican lies about how bad UHC is in those countries. I have NEVER had to wait for treatment, and ALWYS gotten the proper meds.
To be honest, I find your right-winged smugness extremely offensive: you pretend countries with socialized HC only offer inferior care with long lines and wrong meds. Wake up sir: this is not the case at all.

-I'm sorry, but what you said there just proved you have no clue what you were talking about: the child mortality rate is expressed in deaths per thousand births. So the amount of people, or even the fertility rate doesn't matter at all. It's a normalized number. and FYI: even Cuba has a lower child mortality rate than the US... You guys really needed a health care reform, the system was rotten to the core.

-Almost every European country has UHC. That's UHC for about 400 million people. Sure, divided among independent systems, but still a UHC system for all of them that has been working for decades. Univeral doesn't have t mean one bog system that's the same for everybody, it means everybody has the right coverage available for an affordable price.
Saying it can't be done is ignoring the truth.

[Jamo]

Replys

Okay I get your first paragraph.

I have been to countries with UHC. I understand that it isn't as bad as most others say it is. I am just saying that I have had much better experiences with health care in the USA than in other countries. Many (as in 4 families) friends of mine actually moved to America so that they could get the health care that they couldn't get in the UK(cancer stuff). America at least gives you the choice of any care you want, instead of having to deal with what the government gives you. (I never said "wrong meds" BTW)

I will say this for arguments sake: Have you ever been to the USA and used their heath care system? If not you have nothing to compare to.

I never said it couldn't be done. and I realize that the US has a higher child mortality rate. I don't blame this on health care, I blame this on lack of education. The Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act passed in 1969 says that a hospital must treat and stabilize a person whether or not they can pay. It appears that some people don't know this and I think we should educate them. I also blame the infrastructure of America right now. It needs an update. But those 2 things are what mainly cause our rate to be higher, not lack of health care (which with the law we really don't have a lack of health care for the poor people)

[sabelmouse]

it's not only about emergency situations. what about chronic conditions or life threatening diseases that need more than imediate patching up?
add to that the poor nutrition and often lack of access to good food in poorer areas it seems to that if your poor your srewed.
as this will also tell you
http://www.racewire.org/archives/2010/03/death_by_birth_race_and_ma...
http://www.amnestyusa.org/demand-dignity/maternal-health-is-a-human...

[JustCallMeBen]

Yeah, the US has some of the best care in the world. But it's only available to about 10% of the people. But just fyi: here in Belgium we also have socialized health care, but you can still choose whichever hospital you want to stay in, and it'll be covered. Choice isn't limited at all.

And I have been in the US several times, and I have been in the emergency room then. Then I saw how the care for average people (the millions of people without premium coverage) is, and it ain't pretty ;)

[sabelmouse]

look what i just got in the post

Healthcare Barometrics
http://rajpatel.org/2010/03/22/healthcare-barometrics/?utm_source=f...

[Übereil]

"How is making me spend the money that I earned and worked hard for on somebody else who didn't earn, and was able to earn, money? How is that morally right?"

The long answer.

The short answer is that in the State of Nature (meaning a theoretical state where we have no rights) life is bad. It's bad because pepole can do anything they want as long as they're strong enough. If someone wants something you own and is strong enough to take it then he can. This leads to a quite chaotic existance for everyone, where no one really can flourish.

To make our life better we implement this thing called The Social Contract. This social contract puts limits on our behavior and for those limits we get rights. Thanks to the social contract we don't have to worry about getting robbed (in theory) but the catch is that we can't rob anyone. As part of this social contract we implement a state (with goverment and police and so on and so forth) who gets assigned with the job of maintaining the social contract.

In order for the state to do it's job it needs money/resources. The only reasonable way to do this (even in the States) is through taxation. How do we decide who to tax how and what to do with the tax money? Well, the whole point of the state is to improve on the State of Nature by implementing a social contract. So, naturally, the state wants to improve as much as possible on the State of Nature. They don't really have to worry about breaking our rights since the only reason we have rights in the first place is because the state gave them to us.

As long as they improve as much as possible on the State of Nature they can do whatever they want, including torturing kittens (not that I think torturing kittens in any way improves on the State of Nature).

[ProudR/HrShipper]

I finally had to ask my mom the other day why some people are so worked up about socialism, because it doesn't seem all that bad to me. She told me that people are afraid of it because it's a step toward communism (which I will happily agree is something we DON'T want). Personally I am a-okay with the health care bill and was extremely glad to see the House pass it last night. As long as we don't take it to extremes, socialism seems like a fine idea to me.

[Übereil]

A step towards communism? The one and only difference between socialism and communism is how you get there (communists starts a revolution, socialists reforms), not the end product itself.

[sabelmouse]

i do wish people would learn the difference between what marx wrote/said and what people made of it. about as different as what jesus said and what the second roman empire aka catholic church made of it.

[Übereil]

Well, that too.

[Clive-φ-Davidson ImagesNM]

@Übereil @kassandra/sabelmouse
If only I could express how much I agree with you guys.