Vegetarian Nerdfighters?

[Marmaduke The Belittler]

Or more specifically, any who are against hunting, I've been wondering this for a long, long time:

Why is it perfectly acceptable for animals (dolphins, bears, wolves, lions, etc) to hunt and kill their food but not people?

Furthermore, are you just as adverse to the idea of eating bugs and whatnot? Is there a line? and where does that line lie? Like if I were to eat a lobster in front of you, would you be angry, versus if I ate a cockroach, maybe you'd think I was gross, but not feel so bad for the roach?

I've met some Krishna people, irl, (is that the right adjective, correct me if I fail) who say human beings aren't biologically made to eat meat, and I'm not buying it...like, every bit of science I've ever learned is screaming "BS".

What do you guys think? I am your humble audience.

-----------Bonus question------

My curiosity is eating away at me on this subject (Ha, pun!)

For, maybe all you meat eating nerdfighters, or insectivores, can you give me any information on the nutritional benefits of eating insects, arachnids, arthropods in general; or maybe a guide on edible and inedible bugs?


I probably just made myself sound like a total weirdo. Plus I don't know how to categorize this discussion

[thepoliticpoet]

I can't speak for other vegetarians, but the easiest answer to the question about why its okay for animals to eat other animals, but "not" for humans, would be that humans have the ability to make that choice.

It would be silly to say that an alligator is bad for eating a deer, because, as far as we know, alligators are incapable of making anything even closely resembling a moral decision. They simply act on instincts, and can't perform any kind of rational analysis. The same cannot be said for humans. We are able to look at many dimensions of a situation and make judgments about not only what is the best decision to make as far as our own welfare, but also what we consider the "right" decision. I could make your question seem silly and ask you if its okay for animals to kill other animals, then why isn't it okay for humans to kill other humans, but of course that's not the same.

I am a vegetarian myself, but I don't think that it's inherently wrong to eat animals. I just think that the manner in which we go about eating animals is wrong (factory raising, eating so freaking much of it, etc.), and the consequences on depending on animals as a source of food are bad (using up vastly more resources than other food sources). If you've ever seen Hank's video on why all people should start eating less meat, that is a pretty accurate explanation of why I, personally, am a vegetarian (though, of course, Hank talks more about reducing meat consumption than eliminating it).

And as far as the insects go, I do my best to avoid killing insects whenever possible (capturing and releasing outside when found in my home, etc.).

[Marmaduke The Belittler]

very interesting.

[Crina]

I would like to add to this that you could take the alligator example a crucial step further:

Alligators couldn't be vegetarians even if they wanted. They are perfectly evolved for doing exactly what they do, they fill their niche perfectly, so perfectly, that they would die if they tried to live differently.

We humans have the ability to choose living a vegetarian lifestyle AND live to tell the story (and probably even live longer and healthier lives than many of our omnivore friends). I have been a vegetarian (ovo-lacto, i.e. I do eat organic milk and eggs, which I think is fair enough to the animals involved) for 11 years, I do yearly, complete medical check-ups, and it's working out perfectly for me.

[Sam Burns]

I've been lacto-ovo vegetarian since day one and I've never suffered any health problems because of it. I have also said before on this forum that the evolutionary arguement for eating meat is more or less worthless in the face of the modern world in which we live and in any case vegetarianism is the future, not the past.


P.S

Welcome to Nerdfighters Crina hope you enjoy yourself here! :)

[Crina]

Thank you! :)

[sabelmouse]

i have no problem with meat eating in reasonable amounts, or hunting for food.
factory farms and stufing your face with huge amounts of meat that you don't know where it's from , and people who would say "gross" if they where near a meat producing source.
i am officially a locavore; i believe the most sensible aproach is to eat what grows and lives where one lives.
lots of land is not suitable for farming but will supore animals for milk, eggs or meat.
it's a question of scale though. the way we in the west eat and produce is wastefull and over the top, and utterly unsustainable, especially on a global level.

as for hunting; we are not well equipped for hunting. without weapons we'd have a hard time, so if you want to compare us to other predators you should leave those out and see how far we would get.

i have never eaten lobster. the look to much like insects. i hope i will never have to eat insects though people do.
it's taken me years to be ok with them and some still freak me out. i don't kill them though unless they need to be.

this would be my approach to living, foodwise.

[Marmaduke The Belittler]

I definitely agree with the reasonable amounts thing. I tend to eat a lot of greasy, meaty foods because that's what cheap and that's what my family buys...and because I'm a terrible cook. (it's a miracle that I have perfect blood pressure YAY Youth!) But I've experimentally tried vegetarian and vegan diets and could definitely feel the difference in my nutritional balance and my body functioning better.

[Bri :D]

Why is it perfectly acceptable for animals (dolphins, bears, wolves, lions, etc) to hunt and kill their food but not people?

Humans have weapons to hunt with. Guns, bows and arrows,traps, fishing poles, darts ... etc. Animals have nothing to aid them in the hunt, so it's more fair towards their prey.

Furthermore, are you just as adverse to the idea of eating bugs and whatnot? Is there a line? and where does that line lie?

I've never really thought about people eating insects, it's not that common. I wouldn't eat bugs, even if it wasn't gross, because they can feel pain. Some might draw the line at insects because they're tiny and have very, very short life spans.

I've met some Krishna people, irl, (is that the right adjective, correct me if I fail) who say human beings aren't biologically made to eat meat, and I'm not buying it...like, every bit of science I've ever learned is screaming "BS".

We are omnivores, we have teeth for ripping flesh off of bone, (the pointy ones) and we have teeth for crushing plants. (the flat ones)

[Marmaduke The Belittler]

Well, animals (especially the specifically carnivorous ones) are built with significantly more muscle, claws, sharper teeth, stronger jaws, etc. The tools God/nature dealt us was the ability to create weapons and technology, right?

I mean sure, some weapons put as at an unfair advantage but most of them are illegal for hunting.



--I read somewhere that a lot of insects (ants, at least) don't feel pain. They do however, feel fear.

[Decepticon]

Humans don't have natural weapons, but we were still built to be predators. Like all predators we use our minds to overcome the defenses of our prey. Like a jungle cat will lie in wait in the shadows to tackle its prey at the second when it is least expected, or wolves will purposefully choose the weakest member of any herd they chase down and attack its throat in an organized manner, or like snakes will twitch their body to lull a rodent into a false sense of security before attacking it with a lightning quick strike... humans use our minds the same way. We started picking up rocks, and pointy sticks, then we made our own pointy sticks, and figured out ways to throw them.

It's no different than what any other predator does--our minds are just more advanced and therefore the advantages it gives us are more tangible. And they have to be. We lack the muscles, claws, and teeth of less intelligent predators.

[Joey Joe Joe Jr. Shabadoo]

Early hominids (actually, primates before hominids even existed) evolved to use weapons long before there were definitive "humans." So, yes, we, do naturally use weapons, whether we have them or not. And yes, we were built to be predators, however, we were not built to be carnivores. What we have is the ability to appropriate knowledge, including that of the nature of other creatures (killing for fur, etc.), to our own advantage, which brings me to the initial point, which has not been answered sufficiently by anyone at all:

Why is it perfectly acceptable for animals (dolphins, bears, wolves, lions, etc) to hunt and kill their food but not people?

Do any meat-eaters reading this thread hunt and kill their own food? Didn't think so. Yes, a very small portion of people do, but, even then, they're still probably not recreating the diets which we all adapted to eating. Hunter-gatherers persisted on much less food and ate a much smaller proportion of meat than most of today's people--let alone most Americans--do. No, I'm not advocating that we devolve to hunter-gatherers, but rather that our biological systems didn't evolve for anything remotely resembling the diets we have today. We don't live in a hunter-gatherer society because we're smart enough (most of us) to have agriculture and livestock.

I do not see eating meat as essential, as the chemical composition of meat only has one essential vitamin (B12) that can't be found (more efficiently) elsewhere. Soymilk is fortified with loads of B12 for just this reason and any multivitamin inclues more than adequate amounts.

I believe that animals are treated inhumanely in factory farming and raised in a way that's inoptimal for the environment and contributes nothing toward ending hunger (and I go as far to say that it contributes to hunger). Oh and blah blah blah hormones blah blah blah infectious diseases.

Oh--And no--I don't hold it against carnivorous and omnivorous animals to eat meat, provided they don't have the mental capacity for agriculture.

[Decepticon]

"Do any meat-eaters reading this thread hunt and kill their own food? Didn't think so."

You seriously don't think any of us have been on hunting trips and shot a deer or some shit and ate it? None of us have been fishing?

Sure we don't do it every time we eat for various reasons--hunting seasons being restrictive, hunting and fishing being boring as piss, buying shit from the supermarket is just easier--but saying that we haven't or are incapable?

Further, it doesn't matter if I, personally, kill my food. Someone else did. It's just an outgrowth of how we 'naturally use tools' to kill things. We developed tools to raise animals, and we developed a culture around it so that people could do other things beside feed ourselves so that our society could grow.

Working a 9-5 job and earning the money to buy a burger is socially equivalent to slitting the cow's throat, gutting it, grinding the meat, and making your own burgers. That's why the 9-5 pays enough to buy a cow.

I may as well ask you if you grow all your own vegetables and soymilks. Farming methods used in creating vegetarian meals are, arguably, worse for the environment with various pesticides and genetically altered crops. Look up Monsanto corp. some time. Or do you buy everything from local farmer's markets?

And if you do why not buy the meat there? Aren't local farmers supposedly more humane to their animals?