Nerdfighters

Personally, I am pro choice and although I try not to talk about it in respect of other's opinions, it seems like so many pro life supporters are trying to push there thoughts down mine.

So, what is your stance on Abortion? ...just curious. :D

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I believe that abortion should be allowed provided it's performed early enough. However, unless there are serious health risks to the mother, late term abortions should not be allowed. While it is very much scientifically uncertain when conscious life begins. I personally doubt a 10 week old embryo qualifies, yet after 5 months it's very difficult to deny the possibility of consciousness.

But more so, I believe it would be impossible to pass laws to govern such a topic non-controversially. Each separate abortion is a mixture of so many deep emotions, medical complications, and numerous social variables that there'd be a separate piece of legislation for each situation.

I think the only real solution is to prevent the problem from occurring in the first place by education, contraception and societal growth. Until then, I am pro-choice for the mother as long as a medical professional decides that the operation is within reasonable grounds.

I'm not sure how to answer this question when people ask me. I wasn't raised religious, but I was raised to understand that actions come with consequences. So, while I do believe that a woman who has been impregnated should not get an abortion, I also believe that if she does get an abortion, it is her choice and it is not a matter that people should make laws about. It is hard enough for a woman to seek abortion as it is, when it is legal. But more than that, I believe the issue shouldn't be brought up in the courts or in the government. It is an issue of morality, and it always comes back to the argument of when an embryo is a "person". It is actually impossible to find an exact age or date when a grouping of cells becomes a person, for the word "person" has too many different meanings to so many individual people. How is it fair to make laws about an issue which no one can give hard evidence about? How is it fair to make laws about an issue when everyone's argument is almost exclusively his/her opinion on the subject based on his/her religious, moral, social, political, and economical values and his/her upbringing? 

I also believe that if she does get an abortion, it is her choice and it is not a matter that people should make laws about.


Why isn't it a matter for the foetus also?

It is actually impossible to find an exact age or date when a grouping of cells becomes a person, for the word "person" has too many different meanings to so many individual people.

 


Here's a problem with that argument. Why doesn't it work on you too? On the basis of what you've just said, should we decrimilise theft since there are so many different ideas of what "property" means to different people etc? What about "murder"? Since what is a "person" is so different to so many different people, would you just accept someone killing you or someone you loved if they decided that to them, you/your loved ones were not "people".

How is it fair to make laws about an issue which no one can give hard evidence about?


That isn't true. While the concept of a person is somewhat arbitrary, the concept of a human is not. And since human rights apply to humans, I see no reason, objectively speaking, why we deny the foetus human rights.

How is it fair to make laws about an issue when everyone's argument is almost exclusively his/her opinion on the subject based on his/her religious, moral, social, political, and economical values and his/her upbringing?


That's true of all laws.

I'm pro-life because I believe that "embryo" is just another stage of human life, no different from infant, teenager, adult, or old fart. As such, I believe it's terribly wrong for someone to have an abortion just to avoid having an "oops" baby. Come on, we have contraception but none other than abstinence is 100% effective, so if someone gets pregnant in spite of contraceptives (or didn't use them), they need to accept it, no need to end the life of an innocent.


On the other hand, every individual is their own person. In cases where the mother's life is in danger, of course it should be allowed; in cases of rape or incest, it's a more grey area, but I'd rather leave it up to the mother and just gently encourage them to take that atrocity and turn it into something wonderful, rather than ending an innocent life just because a not-so-innocent person created them.

I have not read all 23 pages and will admit to that. I also have a feeling my views will be less than popular.

I am not pro-life or Pro-choice. I am actually pro-abortion. 

I believe that we have far too many children in this world that are honest to god unwanted and inadequately loved by their parents. I have a nephew, my nephew means the world to me. His mother is generally awful towards both her kids because she didn't want them. I wouldn't get ride of them now but these children should never have existed to have the life they have. With an abortion that is just someone who never existed. 

I also think with more abortions we would actually end up with fewer private adoptions where the parents pick out a nice pregnant 15 year old instead of a baby. Then we would have fewer kids in foster care who are honestly going to end up living their whole lives in fostercare feeling unloved and unwanted and run higher risks of drug and alcohol use because of that. 

I think that whenever the other would be unable to reasonably carry to term and provide for a baby an abortion should be required. Like anyone under 17. Its actually dangerous for them to carry all 9 months of pregnancy and their babies are far more likely to be premature and end up with server birth defects and life long problems. I feel it's unreasonable to force a life to go through that because of a kids mistakes.

When i say abortion i am also referring to first term abortions for a majority of this. Third trimester abortions are sketchy to me because your fetus has gotten to a point that it has the ability to sustain it's own life, it's heart is now beating to move blood around it's body and it's brain is now developing into sentienence. 

And yes action come with consequences  but you are now putting another human life into a position where they are a punishment. You exist to punish your parents, how do you feel? 

People also like to argue "How would you feel if you were aborted!" 

1. I wouldn't feel, i would never have existed.

2. My mother almost aborted me due to genetic defects, and her choice would have saved me a lot of physical suffering. So if i had a spirit that would know she made that choice i would have appreciated it. Though i also appreciated the life i was given. 

Though I wouldn't rid myself of life now because I'm pretty awesome. 

With an abortion that is just someone who never existed.


Except they did exist. If they didn't, you wouldn't need to do anything. The fact that they do not have a specific memory of that time is irrelevant.

I also think with more abortions we would actually end up with fewer private adoptions where the parents pick out a nice pregnant 15 year old instead of a baby. Then we would have fewer kids in foster care who are honestly going to end up living their whole lives in fostercare feeling unloved and unwanted and run higher risks of drug and alcohol use because of that.


Who made you God? What gives you the right to say "The life of person X is so bad that it actually would be better if they were killed before time Y"?

I feel it's unreasonable to force a life to go through that because of a kids mistakes.


It's even more unreasonable to take away their life entirely because of a child's mistakes.

And yes action come with consequences  but you are now putting another human life into a position where they are a punishment. You exist to punish your parents, how do you feel?


Consequences =/= punishment. People are not saying that others should feel like they are punished. They are saying that they should be responsable.

People also like to argue "How would you feel if you were aborted!" 

1. I wouldn't feel, i would never have existed.


If you didn't exist, why did someone need to abort you? You cannot abort that which does not exist. Also, the foetus can feel. There are several accounts of people who have survived abortions having terrible dreams relating to their early experiance of abortions etc.

My mother almost aborted me due to genetic defects, and her choice would have saved me a lot of physical suffering. So if i had a spirit that would know she made that choice i would have appreciated it. Though i also appreciated the life i was given.


The problem is that many others would feel the way you do. IE they would appreciate the life they had. And mothers are not Gods. They can't decide who is worthy of life and who isn't.

Though I wouldn't rid myself of life now because I'm pretty awesome.


And don't you think its fair to give the chances to those children to be awesome themselves?

They never existed. They never sustained their own life. They never saw light. The never felt air. Never took a breath. Never had any actual brain activity. 

I don't consider a fetus a life and according to my religion and my god a fetus doesn't have a soul until it's 3/4ths of the way out of it's mother. So

They have no life though, they are a parasite. 

But the parent would look at it as a punishment and getting pregnant at 15 is proof you are not responsible.

Not early abortions. I said third trimester abortions are awful. 

I don't think they are children or have lives or souls. I was born with defects but into a fairly decent life. 

I greatly believe in quality of lives over quantity of lives. 

But the parent would look at it as a punishment and getting pregnant at 15 is proof you are not responsible.


The parent's perspective isn't relevant.

I don't think they are children or have lives or souls. I was born with defects but into a fairly decent life.


And what gives you, or anyone, the right to decide if a life is "good enough" to warrent continued existance.

They were never able to breath and have a heart beat that sustained life. A heart that kept them from dieing. Also this wasn't on the law this was on our morals and viewpoints. Plus any anti abortion stance brings in their religion. 

Life where you will be loved or wanted. Life that with basic things that everyone deserves or at lest moral support to deal with your lack of them. 

The parents bodies are at stake, the parents lives are at stake. It's their choice to bring life or not. Its their responsibility to raise a child they bring in to this world. They are not irrelevant. 

They were never able to breath and have a heart beat that sustained life. A heart that kept them from dieing.


Actually, they do respire. All living things do. They don't breathe in the same way as you, but they do. And yes, they rely on their mother's heart beat, but you've yet to explain why that makes them less human.

Also this wasn't on the law this was on our morals and viewpoints. Plus any anti abortion stance brings in their religion.

 

Well I'm not. So you're going to have to engage with my non-religious argument against aboriton.

Life where you will be loved or wanted.


So your saying unloved people are medically dead?

Life that with basic things that everyone deserves or at lest moral support to deal with your lack of them.

You've yet to demonstrate how the foetus does not deserve moral support.

The parents bodies are at stake, the parents lives are at stake


In very rare cases. If it is a case of the mother or the foetus, then yes, the operation becomes medical.

It's their choice to bring life or not.


The foetus is alive, whether they give birth to it or not.

Its their responsibility to raise a child they bring in to this world. They are not irrelevant.

 


I didn't say the parents are irrelevant. I said the parent's perceptions are irrelevant.

Im against it to be honest, I would ask them how they would feel if they were aborted 

That is such a dishonest question. It's like asking someone who was the result of a teen pregnancy if they are against teenagers having unprotected sex. They only exist as a byproduct of it, yet that doesn't mean that it should be encouraged.

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