Nerdfighters

Personally, I am pro choice and although I try not to talk about it in respect of other's opinions, it seems like so many pro life supporters are trying to push there thoughts down mine.

So, what is your stance on Abortion? ...just curious. :D

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Therefore, since we are the same, and have the same kind of potential, who are you to say that we are different from them. We're talking about inevitable potential. The same kind of potential we base our murder laws on today. So why is the foetus any different?

The difference is that we know about it. We also know about yesterday, and the day before that, and the day before that. We have an extensive and unique recollection of our lives and experiences thus far. Whether or not this knowledge is important is open for debate, but I would suggest that it is much more important than the mere chance of existing is. While it's true that you have to exist in order to become a person, it doesn't trouble me if  a fetus is terminated before this potential is met, and I'm pretty sure that reaching self-awareness and personhood is a gradual continuous process that which can only take place after birth.

When you kill a person, you take away their plans, dreams, memories, skills etc. And you take that person away from people who care for them. Totally different.

A fetus might dream about color and muffled sounds which it may or may not enjoy like an animal would do too, but it has no idea what to make of it. It doesn't think that when I get our of here, I'm going to be a painter.

Whether or not this knowledge is important is open for debate, but I would suggest that it is much more important than the mere chance of existing is.


1. The baby won't have that knowlege of any kind for several more weeks after it is born. Your argument allows for it to be killed in that time.

2. Look at it this way, imagine someone that had won the 100M olympic final, but they had not been given the gold medal yet, and someone intercepted the computer and altered the results to make it look as though the person who came first in fact came third. Is that fair? After all, he didn't have the gold yet, you've just eliminated the potential of him having a gold. Sure, he would have got the gold for certainty barring some kind of accident between then and now, but he didn't actually have it. He only had inevitable potential.

1. The baby won't have that knowlege of any kind for several more weeks after it is born. Your argument allows for it to be killed in that time.


That is an utmost consequence, but not necessarily untrue. I'm asserting that personhood can not develop in the womb, and I see no logical reasons to suggest otherwise. If that's the way it is, then that's the way it is... The nature of the environment is obviously to simple for allowing it to happen, even if the fetus is awake for great lenghts of it's time there (which I doubt that it is, as it would be a complete waste of energy). That personhood doesn't just spontaneously appear by itself after birth, and that everything that they do is primeval, is naturally a consequence too. The difference is that prior to birth you can be confident that it's not there, but after it's not as clear as to draw a definite line since it's development is transitional and completely individual.

2. Look at it this way, imagine someone that had won the 100M olympic final, but they had not been given the gold medal yet, and someone intercepted the computer and altered the results to make it look as though the person who came first in fact came third. Is that fair? After all, he didn't have the gold yet, you've just eliminated the potential of him having a gold. Sure, he would have got the gold for certainty barring some kind of accident between then and now, but he didn't actually have it. He only had inevitable potential.

I don't see the relevance. The person who won would have known that he won regardless of what any computers says, and would have argued his case, because that's what people do. A fetus just lies there, completely oblivious of what's ahead.

Pro life, unless you're talking about extreme cases such as rape. From a young age I was taught that actions come with consequences. It's not the baby's fault that you decided to have unprotected sex at 16.

This has had much discussion, and I am too lazy to read it all, but my view is this:

Abortions are bad, and they shouldn't exist. Everyone should have access to free or cheap contraception, because you can't just expect people to live in abstinence.

However, illegalising abortions would not be a good idea. It would lead to people doing DIY abortions, which is much more dangerous than an abortion performed by doctors, and places the mother at much higher risk, ultimately leading to more harm.

Also, I think that a human embryo is ultimately nothing more but a potential human. It is by no means a person. The mother's rights are more important than the embryo's, in my opinion.

So I am pro-choice, but by no means pro-abortion.

I love how you explained your stand on this issue. 

I believe that abortion should be allowed provided it's performed early enough. However, unless there are serious health risks to the mother, late term abortions should not be allowed. While it is very much scientifically uncertain when conscious life begins. I personally doubt a 10 week old embryo qualifies, yet after 5 months it's very difficult to deny the possibility of consciousness.

But more so, I believe it would be impossible to pass laws to govern such a topic non-controversially. Each separate abortion is a mixture of so many deep emotions, medical complications, and numerous social variables that there'd be a separate piece of legislation for each situation.

I think the only real solution is to prevent the problem from occurring in the first place by education, contraception and societal growth. Until then, I am pro-choice for the mother as long as a medical professional decides that the operation is within reasonable grounds.

I'm not sure how to answer this question when people ask me. I wasn't raised religious, but I was raised to understand that actions come with consequences. So, while I do believe that a woman who has been impregnated should not get an abortion, I also believe that if she does get an abortion, it is her choice and it is not a matter that people should make laws about. It is hard enough for a woman to seek abortion as it is, when it is legal. But more than that, I believe the issue shouldn't be brought up in the courts or in the government. It is an issue of morality, and it always comes back to the argument of when an embryo is a "person". It is actually impossible to find an exact age or date when a grouping of cells becomes a person, for the word "person" has too many different meanings to so many individual people. How is it fair to make laws about an issue which no one can give hard evidence about? How is it fair to make laws about an issue when everyone's argument is almost exclusively his/her opinion on the subject based on his/her religious, moral, social, political, and economical values and his/her upbringing? 

I also believe that if she does get an abortion, it is her choice and it is not a matter that people should make laws about.


Why isn't it a matter for the foetus also?

It is actually impossible to find an exact age or date when a grouping of cells becomes a person, for the word "person" has too many different meanings to so many individual people.

 


Here's a problem with that argument. Why doesn't it work on you too? On the basis of what you've just said, should we decrimilise theft since there are so many different ideas of what "property" means to different people etc? What about "murder"? Since what is a "person" is so different to so many different people, would you just accept someone killing you or someone you loved if they decided that to them, you/your loved ones were not "people".

How is it fair to make laws about an issue which no one can give hard evidence about?


That isn't true. While the concept of a person is somewhat arbitrary, the concept of a human is not. And since human rights apply to humans, I see no reason, objectively speaking, why we deny the foetus human rights.

How is it fair to make laws about an issue when everyone's argument is almost exclusively his/her opinion on the subject based on his/her religious, moral, social, political, and economical values and his/her upbringing?


That's true of all laws.

I'm pro-life because I believe that "embryo" is just another stage of human life, no different from infant, teenager, adult, or old fart. As such, I believe it's terribly wrong for someone to have an abortion just to avoid having an "oops" baby. Come on, we have contraception but none other than abstinence is 100% effective, so if someone gets pregnant in spite of contraceptives (or didn't use them), they need to accept it, no need to end the life of an innocent.


On the other hand, every individual is their own person. In cases where the mother's life is in danger, of course it should be allowed; in cases of rape or incest, it's a more grey area, but I'd rather leave it up to the mother and just gently encourage them to take that atrocity and turn it into something wonderful, rather than ending an innocent life just because a not-so-innocent person created them.

I have not read all 23 pages and will admit to that. I also have a feeling my views will be less than popular.

I am not pro-life or Pro-choice. I am actually pro-abortion. 

I believe that we have far too many children in this world that are honest to god unwanted and inadequately loved by their parents. I have a nephew, my nephew means the world to me. His mother is generally awful towards both her kids because she didn't want them. I wouldn't get ride of them now but these children should never have existed to have the life they have. With an abortion that is just someone who never existed. 

I also think with more abortions we would actually end up with fewer private adoptions where the parents pick out a nice pregnant 15 year old instead of a baby. Then we would have fewer kids in foster care who are honestly going to end up living their whole lives in fostercare feeling unloved and unwanted and run higher risks of drug and alcohol use because of that. 

I think that whenever the other would be unable to reasonably carry to term and provide for a baby an abortion should be required. Like anyone under 17. Its actually dangerous for them to carry all 9 months of pregnancy and their babies are far more likely to be premature and end up with server birth defects and life long problems. I feel it's unreasonable to force a life to go through that because of a kids mistakes.

When i say abortion i am also referring to first term abortions for a majority of this. Third trimester abortions are sketchy to me because your fetus has gotten to a point that it has the ability to sustain it's own life, it's heart is now beating to move blood around it's body and it's brain is now developing into sentienence. 

And yes action come with consequences  but you are now putting another human life into a position where they are a punishment. You exist to punish your parents, how do you feel? 

People also like to argue "How would you feel if you were aborted!" 

1. I wouldn't feel, i would never have existed.

2. My mother almost aborted me due to genetic defects, and her choice would have saved me a lot of physical suffering. So if i had a spirit that would know she made that choice i would have appreciated it. Though i also appreciated the life i was given. 

Though I wouldn't rid myself of life now because I'm pretty awesome. 

With an abortion that is just someone who never existed.


Except they did exist. If they didn't, you wouldn't need to do anything. The fact that they do not have a specific memory of that time is irrelevant.

I also think with more abortions we would actually end up with fewer private adoptions where the parents pick out a nice pregnant 15 year old instead of a baby. Then we would have fewer kids in foster care who are honestly going to end up living their whole lives in fostercare feeling unloved and unwanted and run higher risks of drug and alcohol use because of that.


Who made you God? What gives you the right to say "The life of person X is so bad that it actually would be better if they were killed before time Y"?

I feel it's unreasonable to force a life to go through that because of a kids mistakes.


It's even more unreasonable to take away their life entirely because of a child's mistakes.

And yes action come with consequences  but you are now putting another human life into a position where they are a punishment. You exist to punish your parents, how do you feel?


Consequences =/= punishment. People are not saying that others should feel like they are punished. They are saying that they should be responsable.

People also like to argue "How would you feel if you were aborted!" 

1. I wouldn't feel, i would never have existed.


If you didn't exist, why did someone need to abort you? You cannot abort that which does not exist. Also, the foetus can feel. There are several accounts of people who have survived abortions having terrible dreams relating to their early experiance of abortions etc.

My mother almost aborted me due to genetic defects, and her choice would have saved me a lot of physical suffering. So if i had a spirit that would know she made that choice i would have appreciated it. Though i also appreciated the life i was given.


The problem is that many others would feel the way you do. IE they would appreciate the life they had. And mothers are not Gods. They can't decide who is worthy of life and who isn't.

Though I wouldn't rid myself of life now because I'm pretty awesome.


And don't you think its fair to give the chances to those children to be awesome themselves?

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