What would you change about welfare programs if you could?

[Latch33570]

I am talking about food stamps now called EBT, section 8 housing and housing projects, child care assistance also called preschool, WIC, and of course just plain old welfare checks.

[Latch33570]

I would give a percentage of money saved to individuals who provide proof of fraud. May people commit fraud in order to get welfare. Some of the most common is saying that one doesn't know the dad is, one doesn't know who the dad is, and lying about how many  people in the household, Lying about household income.  

For those stated common frauds I propose we make those records open to the public. If they are taking my money and giving it to someone else who did not earn it. I want to be able to verify who and see if they are frauding the govt/me.

[Vertigo_One [Ops Mod]]

For those stated common frauds I propose we make those records open to the public. If they are taking my money and giving it to someone else who did not earn it. I want to be able to verify who and see if they are frauding the govt/me.

That's dangerous. It could encourage a form of vigilantism, which isn't good.

Vigilantism is, at its core, a good idea badly applied. The idea being that if you make everyone's actions publicly available 100% of the time, with the knowledge therefore that if you do something negative, anyone who hears about it will have the authority to come and punish you for that. The problem is that the punishment system is not regulated in that scenario, and so while in principle it may seem good to make everything open, in practice the danger is the emergence of very evil people who exact revenge in a fashion that is fundamentally opposed to the way our system of justice operates.

[Emily]

I would keep EBT, housing projects, child care assistance and I think they should have more child care assistance so people can go to work and can have their kids in daycare and make money. They should have heating assistance, but no plain old welfare check, you should hand people money that they can do whatever they want with it. They should still need a job to stay afloat.

 

[Latch33570]

I would also assign a counselor that could talk to the welfare recipients boss about getting more hours or more responsibility in order to get a raise.
Vertigo I don't think vigilantism would be a problem. I think it would darn sure cut down on the fraud and abuse. Maybe some of these women wouldn't be so quick to have out of wedlock children or have kids with scumbags.

[Vertigo_One [Ops Mod]]

Vertigo I don't think vigilantism would be a problem.

Yes it would. We already see vigilantism with the sex offenders register. People in the UK have been attacked because they are paediatricians. Vigilantism is a danger when any kind of criminal record system is made widely available to the public. We have seen this time and again.

[Latch33570]

I don't think they would be attacked. They would be scrutinized but I think that would be a good thing. It would give them incentive to get off welfare.    Just because sex offenders have a problem with vigilantism doesn't mean welfare recipients will. They ARE not the same thing. 

[Vertigo_One [Ops Mod]]

No, they are not the same thing, but you are using the same system. The danger of vigilantism has been seen in a number of cases, from people who have been wrongly convicted to people who have been tried by the court of public opinion etc. What you are talking about is essentially the same as having people publicly flogged, except the difference is that they haven't committed a crime. The reason we don't do what you're suggesting is a basic concept called dignity. You don't take away someone's dignity because they need help from the state. You don't kick a man when he's down.

While it is true that welfare recipients should indeed have their situation scrutinised to a certain extent, they should NOT be scrutinised by the public. They should be scrutinised by people who have training and social awareness. The public can be ignorant and misguided when acting on mass.

Also, the problem with welfare claimant systems and making them public is that welfare claiming systems rely intensively on detailed access to someone's personal information. Making that kind of information public would inevitably lead to large amounts of fraud.

[Latch33570]

No if they are taking MY MONEY I want to know why.  I see to much fraud to accept that.  What do you think about the coach idea?

I do know, even before I said it, that it would never happen for exactly the reason you stated. I just disagree with it.

[Vertigo_One [Ops Mod]]

No if they are taking MY MONEY I want to know why.

People are also taking your money and using it to pave roads they use. I suppose you want to know where everyone is going, since they are using your money to go places.

I see to much fraud to accept that.

Less fraud is happening than you think. 2-3% of all welfare in the US is claimed fraudulently. Tax avoidance is a far far bigger problem.

[Latch33570]

I do not believe those statistics. I wish they were true. I don't believe them for 2 reasons. 1 Anything that politically charged has so much variation on how it is calculated. 2 there is some things that I consider fraud but does not show up on statistics such as not being willing to work more hours or poor work ethics. 

Welfare is different from infrastructure. Some things are best done by everyone chipping in for communal use items. Welfare is not a communal use thing. It is the govt taking MY MONEY away and giving it to someone else who didn't earn it. Those other things are open for the public to look at the records. I can go to a county records dept and look at the records of who did what with my money. I can't do that with the welfare records. It is not that I am not compassionate. I am a very generous and compassionate person and QUITE often help total strangers out. I am just do not think it is right to be generous with someone else's money. Robin Hood was a thief. I am not a thief or corrupt. It is not right to forceably take MY MONEY or anyone else's to give it to someone who did not earn it.

[Vertigo_One [Ops Mod]]

1 Anything that politically charged has so much variation on how it is calculated.

Then why are statistics that support your position valid?

2 there is some things that I consider fraud but does not show up on statistics such as not being willing to work more hours or poor work ethics.

Not being willing to work more hours isn't fraud. You don't have the right to impose your vision of fraud on other people. That is why we have a civil justice system.

Welfare is not a communal use thing. It is the govt taking MY MONEY away and giving it to someone else who didn't earn it.

The same is true of infrastructure. No one "earned" a road. It is provided for communal use. The same is true of welfare. 

Those other things are open for the public to look at the records. I can go to a county records dept and look at the records of who did what with my money. I can't do that with the welfare records.

You can, to the same extent you can with infrastructure. You can see how much money was spent on it. You can't see the name of every individual who used and benefited from the road.

I am just do not think it is right to be generous with someone else's money.

If you are so generous, why do you not just accept that these people need it, and let them have it. The vast vast majority of welfare isn't fraud, so let people have it.

Robin Hood was a thief. I am not a thief or corrupt. It is not right to forceably take MY MONEY or anyone else's to give it to someone who did not earn it.

Then protest infrastructure projects. Don't use public roads. After all, you didn't pay for it, so what right have you got to use it? Yes, your taxes paid for a tiny slice, but that probably amounts to about a foot or so? Not even that, probably. Sorry, you're just wrong. Either you use public services or you don't. If you do, you have no right to complain about welfare, since you no more earned the provision of those services than they earned the money provided for them in welfare.

[Latch33570]

Come on Vertigo now you are being ridiculous. Welfare is not the same as infrastructure. You are being silly. I am generous just not with other people's money. The money and records of infrastructure and parks and police ect is open. Not the same for roads there is no need for anyone to know who drove on the roads. If there was a need and the govt did have a record of who drove where it would be open records.

No one earned a road? What the heck are you talking about? Everyone can drive on the roads. Not everyone can get welfare. One is for communal use one is not.

I did not use stats in my argument. You did not provide a link to your 2.5% fraud rate. I would like to see it. 

You are correct in saying that people not wanting to work over certain hours is not fraud. It IS still wrong and I don't believe those people should be allowed to take MY MONEY because they don't want to work to hard for their own.