Predestination?

[Sydnee]

I could give you my little spiel on it, but that would be way less fun right now.

Where do you stand on it?

Edit: I think it's pretty safe to say I'm a New Calvinist. I'm not sure what to really think of "limited atonement", but I am still working that out with God.

[Matthew Bell]

Im a Molinist,

 

is that enough or should explain it... or?

[Bryan Rosander, FL]

I'd like a little explanation.  What I know about it mostly confused me.

[Bryan Rosander, FL]

I am a Calvinist, believing that God is all powerful and in control of everything.

 

God has two wills, a moral will and a will of decree.  The moral will is what he wants us to do as his creation / children.  The decreed will is what actually happens.  When we pray and want to know God's will for our lives, we pray for his moral will.

 

Anything that happens, happens because he decreed it as an indirect cause.

Some things happen because he caused them himself.

God is consistent in that he does not play around with physics and miracles in order to amuse himself.  Any miracles that he does / has performed are consistent with his ultimate plan of redemption, if not with physics as well.

Human beings are sinful and are incapable of desiring God's will in our lives without the Holy Spirit working in our lives to bring us to repentance.

When the Holy Spirit does work in our lives, he is so convincing that we will not resist him indefinitely.  God has chosen the people that he will bring to repentance based entirely on his own designs.

While God could bring everyone to repentance, he chooses not to in order to display the full nature of his character, including his justice, wrath, patience, righteous jealousy.

God could have stopped Adam and Eve from sinning in the Garden of Eden without breaking their free will, but he chose not to in order to display is love of us by sacrificing his son Jesus on the cross.

God is responsible for his own actions as well as the consequences of our actions, because he allowed them.  Even though God has decreed our sin, he is not guilty of our sin because he did not cause our sin.  Rather our sin is caused by our own sinful nature as well as (indirectly) temptation from Satan.

Satan himself cannot tempt us except as God allows.

Romans 8:28, "And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose."

Human free will exists and is one of the tools that God uses to bring about his decrees.  This is almost impossible to understand, so I just accept it.

God loves some people (Christians) all of the time and all people some of the time.

Whatever we do, whether we live or die, get married, get a job or whatever, we do under God's protection.  God will not let anything happen outside of his control.  Whatever does happen, God decreed that it would happen.

 

Any questions?

[Joanna Licata]

God loves some people (Christians) all of the time and all people some of the time.

 

I just need to say that God is love. God loves all of the people all of the time. He loves the person but hates the sin. God doesn't just love Christians all the time. I don't want to offend you, but I find that to be ridiculous.

 

 

 

[Bryan Rosander, FL]

This is a way that people I know use to describe God's punishment of hell.  While they can describe God's earthly punishment as loving, they couldn't describe eternal punishment as such, at least to the person that it is directed at.  If you have an alternate way of handling that, I am open to suggestion.

[Rebecca Holley]

I agree with Joanna on this point. John 3:16 says "For God so loved the world" - that includes everybody. You are correct in saying that eternal punishment is not very loving, but in addition to being loving, God is just. He will dispense eternal justice. Since God extended the gift of love, Salvation through the death and resurrection of Christ Jesus, humans have an option to take that gift. If they don't, they are rejecting God's love and will get the just eternal punishment for their sins.

At least, that's how I view it.

[Bryan Rosander, FL]

Hell was created by Satan, and is under his jurisdiction.

What in the world?  Satan has not created anything, except by corrupting God's original creation.  Satan has no power to throw you into hell, and will be going there himself as punishment.

 

Are you a dualist, Darren?

[Joanna Licata]

Yes, thank you Becca. God loves everyone on the planet more than you can imagine, but because of His perfection He must carry out justice. 

The last thing He wants for any of us though is hell. And that's why He sacrificed His Son.

[Sydnee]

Yes. Could you please use Scripture to back up your statements? And I will check again, but I think you may have used Romans 8:28 out of context.

[Bryan Rosander, FL]

The book of Habakkuk is great for establishing God's sovereignty over everything, including our actions. For instance, Habakkuk 1:5-6:

Look among the nations, and see;
   wonder and be astounded.
 For I am doing a work in your days
   that you would not believe if told.
For behold, I am raising up the Chaldeans,
   that bitter and hasty nation,
 who march through the breadth of the earth,
    to seize dwellings not their own.

In Job, we see that God is in control of Satan so that Satan cannot act outside of God's will.  Job 1:12:

And the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your hand. Only against him do not stretch out your hand." So Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.

God's sovereignty in salvation, as well as working all things for his purposes. Ephesians 1:11-14:

In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

Also, Romans 8:26-30 which talks about God's sovereignty over everything but in particular over salvation:

Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.  For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

 

[Sydnee]

Thank you so much! :)

[E_Lewis]

I believe God wills us to do good, but that he gives us free will. He wants us to do his will, but he won't force us. He does what he can through the Holy Spirit and through his love to help us stay from sin without keeping us from having the free will to choose another path. I believe God knows based on knowing us so well whether we will make it to heaven or not, but I don't believe he really "plans" on us going to hell or not. He does what he can to keep it from happening, but he knows if we'll make it or not in the end.