Nerdfighters

Now, of course I don’t doubt that all of you in this group have an extensive knowledge of everything that happened throughout the Holocaust, but discussions I’ve always found interesting in relation to the event are ones that explore why the Holocaust happened and what is the main source behind it all. Of course there was the wide, almost global hatred of Jews prior to WWII, and so forth, but I’m really interested in what other Nerdfighters think about it.
So, post away!

Views: 22

Replies to This Discussion

actually jews had it relativly good in germany before WW2. mores the pity.read this book;
the pity of it all by amos elon.
I agree, life was not all bad for the jews before WW2. There are many "stories" out there that claims to be the reason why Hitler dispised them so much. I think the most popular of the stories was about Hitler wanting to become an artist. The School that Hitler applied to rejected him because of the style of painting Hitler did. He painted landscapes. Post WW2 art that expressed emotions and feelings was what made it big. Hitler hated that style. Anyway, despite of his talent he was turned down by the school board which contained some jewish people among them.
As for the causes of the Holocaust, Hitler hated anyone that did not agree with his way of life or way of thinking. I think to answer this question you have to ask yourself what started WW2. My personal opinion of WW2 is that it was a direct cause of WW1. At the end of WW1 there was the The Treaty of Versailles. This treaty solely placed Germany responsible for everything that happened in WW1. According to this treaty, Germany was responsible for paying back the war debt in WW1, it made them disband their militairy, and even forced Germany to give up her territories or land. This made alot of Germans angry. Germany needed a savior so to speek, and they got one. At first Hitler was not bent on World domination or starting Holocaust. That came much later. Hitler gave Germany what she needed and that was a backbone. He pretty much said sure we could do all that stuff and give in or we can make Germany great again. Through gaining support of the working man (not the rich man) he slowly gained power and was elected ruler. It is hard to say but I personally feel that if the Allied Powers were not so hard on Germany at the end of WW1 then the people would of never elected Hitler as ruler.
I've heard the story about Hitler's rejection from an art school, which I'm also quite sure is many of the reasons for some artists hiding their art throughout this time period, as I'd often heard. I can't recall their names, but I remember researching it a while back now. However, being rejected from an art school wouldn't compel someone to attempt the systematic slaughter of an entire race.

And additionally, to this point, I don't see how he would be able to recognise Jews. Sure, they had the entire theory about the Jew's noses being large (and I actually saw an image where NAZIS would circulate towns, measuring noses) and sometimes, they had a distinctive look, but Jews were a nomadic race, and often "cross breeded," so to speak.

I really honestly believe that the main cause of the holocaust - not WWII - was the nazi ideology and philosophy which basically fuelled anti-semitic attitudes throughout this period of time. of course, the acceptance to the treaty of versailles in 1919 presented an opportunity for Hitler to rise to power, claiming that he could solve the nations problems, although the direct doctrines and beliefs that the anti-semitic forces such as the NAZIS, SS, SA, etc operated by were the actual cause, by my belief, as they had the belief that Jews needed to be ridded from society completely due to their inferiority. Europe already encompassed a long history of anti-semitism, however, these attitudes flourished with election of Hitler and the NAZI Party's rise to power.
You make some good points and the whole art school thing is just a theory. However before the Holocaust began I doubt the jews hid who they were. I am sure there are lots of little things that can seperate a jewish person from the rest of the crowd. Some sort of cloathing or something I don't know. If you take the beannie off of the jew you cant tell I am sure. Just like the omish. They have distinct styles that allows us to recognize people. All I am saying is that there had to be something cause he did a darn god job locateing them.
No one knows what really turned his attention to the Jews. I am led to believe that he had jewish blood in his veins so I do not know how to answer that. I do know that 9 million people died in the war and 6 million as far as they could tell were jews. Thats alot.
I think that the treaty of versailles was a key factor. like we both agreed on, I don't think Germany would of ever relinquished power to Hitler if the treaty never took place.
Were Hitler developed his hatred for anyone is beyond me. However he did strive for what he called a perfect race. He castrated people so they could not breed. He created lots of laws that stoped people from having a life.
as far as i know many jews where fairly well integrated and had even switched religion. they where not always easy to find.
my mother had to proof that there vwas no jewish blod in her veins three generations back.
that always really got me.
Prior to the Third Reich, anti-Semitism had existed throughout most parts of the world, an Jews were to wear a yellow star on their coats - some were even proud of this, if you've read the Diary of Anne Frank - and sometimes other objects which characterised their race. Additionally, it was sometimes difficult not to recognise a member of the supposed 'race'. Their religion entails certain actions/routines, attire and possessions. This could make it quite obvious; but to an extent. I've heard that whilst Hitler was growing up, their was a politician named Karl Leuger who took a similar stance by persecuting Jews throughout his time in power.

At a Holocaust museum, it stated that approximately 200,000 Jews that died in WWII were German.
From 6, 000, 000,
200, 000.
What do you think of that?
It makes me feel pretty darn indifferent.

I definitely agree that the Treaty of Versailles presented an opportunity for Hitler to rise to power, and he was able to blame the inflation on the Jews, as they were nomadic, a minority, and of minimal support to Germany throughout the first world war. However, I do not believe that Hitler initally came to power to eliminate the race. Yes, he did write 'Mein Kampf' before being elected to power, although I think that things came and matters progressed, and his plans eventually led to the notorious Holocaust.
I don't think Karl Lueger (the Mayor of Vienna from 1897-1910) actually took much action in terms of persecuting Jews, but he was a great orator and definitely wove anti-Semitic messages into his speeches. BUT Vienna was kind of a Jewish haven at the turn of the century, and I think his influence did more in solidifying right-wing strategies against communists than actually targeting Jews.

As for the statistics, there are a couple reasons why there would have been fewer German Jews than Jews from other countries. The first is that over the course of history in Europe, Jews got pushed farther and farther eastward, eventually settling in Poland-Lithuania (which was HUGE - Ukraine, Belarus, the Baltic states, maybe part of Romania) in the middle ages, where there was more tolerance toward them. I was reading a book on Central Europe that said out of the 6 million deaths, half were Polish Jews, which is a disproportionately high number, both because there were a lot of Jews in Poland at the time and because the Polish population got hit extra hard by the two-front war. Anyway, the second reason that the German Jew count would be low is that Nazis considered the terms German and Jewish to be mutually exclusive. If you were Jewish, you weren't ethnically German. I'm not sure where the Holocaust museum figures come from exactly, but I would imagine the Nazis would've tried to associate the Jews with any place other than Germany, whenever possible, even if they'd lived there for generations.
a lot of jewish people moved or tried to move to germany before WW2. it used to be one of the better paces for them before all that was destroyed.
when i say better that's relative of course. better then the russian/east european stetl for instance.
there is another holocaust i just found out about
http://books.google.ie/books?id=3IrKEzgkQkMC&dq=late+victorian+...
interesting new book
Nazi loyalist and Adolf Hitler's devoted aide: the true story of Eva Braun
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/feb/14/eva-braun-adolf-hitler
Thats sound intresting, I always thought Eva Braun as just some halfwitted girl who wanted to bask in Hitler's power and fame.

RSS

© 2014   Created by Hank Green.   Powered by

Badges  |  Report an Issue  |  Terms of Service